Toronto VS Ottawa, on CBC Thursday 04 OCT 07

[pmrules]

Although with timeouts being less crucial, maybe a missed appeal should be a 2 minute delay of game penalty...much like checking the curvature on a stick.

I wouldn't mind that...it would be regulated on its own, since teams won't be willing to give that up unless it was an assured situation.

[TML fan]

And that's wrong. The refs have a whistle. They can blow the play dead any time they want. If the ref thought it went in, he should've blown it dead right away and gone upstairs.

If the ref had done that last night, I wouldn't be saying anything. My issue is with the head office meddling in the outcome of the game. It's bad enough that the refs make so many bogus calls during a game...now we've got the head office making decisions on games they aren't even attending.

Ya, damn that video replay!  Who do they think they are, making the right call...the nerve 

Once again, you're missing the point. I am not against video replay. I am not against the referee going upstairs to check. I am against the head office calling down and giving a break to one team, while doing a disservice to another. If the ref made the call, then fine...but he didn't.

It's all about getting the call right.  If we can't agree on that, there is something wrong.

With the amount of calls they get wrong on a daily basis, it's not "all about getting the call right" and as I've said 18 billion times, I have no problem with the referee asking for a review. I have a problem with the league stepping in when they have delegated that responsibility to the officials.

[TML fan]

I'm not arguing against video review. I'm arguing against the head office making the call instead of the referee.

If the ref had blown the play dead and gone upstairs, I wouldn't be saying anything because I saw as much as everyone else that the puck clearly went in. I don't think the head office should be going out of their way to overrule the referees.

I think they got that one correct, and did everything correct.  It's just from a Leaf fans perspective so much time had gone by afterwords, and Ottawa didn't even say boo, and only because of a commercial following that seqeunce was anything able to happen.  They had to set the clock way back and the Leafs had something going at that point too.  Major momentum killer and just added to a frustrating outcome.

Ugh...I'm not saying it was the wrong call. I'm saying I don't agree with the league stepping in and making the decision. That should be left in the hands of the referees. That's what they put them on the ice for.

[Manson]

I'm not arguing against video review. I'm arguing against the head office making the call instead of the referee.

If the ref had blown the play dead and gone upstairs, I wouldn't be saying anything because I saw as much as everyone else that the puck clearly went in. I don't think the head office should be going out of their way to overrule the referees.

I think they got that one correct, and did everything correct.  It's just from a Leaf fans perspective so much time had gone by afterwords, and Ottawa didn't even say boo, and only because of a commercial following that seqeunce was anything able to happen.  They had to set the clock way back and the Leafs had something going at that point too.  Major momentum killer and just added to a frustrating outcome.

Ugh...I'm not saying it was the wrong call. I'm saying I don't agree with the league stepping in and making the decision. That should be left in the hands of the referees. That's what they put them on the ice for.

Whatever.  We'll see what you say when the shoe is on the other foot.

[cw]

So if all of this stuff is reviewable, why isn't it that penalty calls can't be reviewed, or that non-calls can't be called? If you're going to use video review, I would almost perfer to see a NFL type system employed where you have to appeal to video review and if the call is upheld you burn a time out and if it isn't upheld you don't.

I'd prefer it and I like the NFL system that provides limits. Maybe as LK suggests, if the appeal doesn't go your way, the team has to serve 2 - like they used to do with stick curvature infractions.

The networks won't tolerate dragging the game out so the number of appeals allowed would have to be small.

[bustaheims]

I'm not arguing against video review. I'm arguing against the head office making the call instead of the referee.

If the ref had blown the play dead and gone upstairs, I wouldn't be saying anything because I saw as much as everyone else that the puck clearly went in. I don't think the head office should be going out of their way to overrule the referees.

I think they got that one correct, and did everything correct.  It's just from a Leaf fans perspective so much time had gone by afterwords, and Ottawa didn't even say boo, and only because of a commercial following that seqeunce was anything able to happen.  They had to set the clock way back and the Leafs had something going at that point too.  Major momentum killer and just added to a frustrating outcome.

Ugh...I'm not saying it was the wrong call. I'm saying I don't agree with the league stepping in and making the decision. That should be left in the hands of the referees. That's what they put them on the ice for.

I agree with this to an extent.  I understand the need for the so-called war room at the head offices in Toronto, and I appreciate them being there when a decision is in question.  That's all well and good BUT I don't think they should have the ability to call in to an arena to resolve a dispute.  THey shoudl be there as a resource to the in-house goal judges, otherwise, why bother having an in-house team at all?  They should have input by request only, not be able to force a decision on the in-house and on-ice officials who are responsible for the game being played.

[Tomer]

And that's wrong. The refs have a whistle. They can blow the play dead any time they want. If the ref thought it went in, he should've blown it dead right away and gone upstairs.

If the ref had done that last night, I wouldn't be saying anything. My issue is with the head office meddling in the outcome of the game. It's bad enough that the refs make so many bogus calls during a game...now we've got the head office making decisions on games they aren't even attending.

Ya, damn that video replay!  Who do they think they are, making the right call...the nerve 

Once again, you're missing the point. I am not against video replay. I am not against the referee going upstairs to check. I am against the head office calling down and giving a break to one team, while doing a disservice to another. If the ref made the call, then fine...but he didn't.

It's all about getting the call right.  If we can't agree on that, there is something wrong.

I think it’s partly about getting the call right but not entirely. I think it has to also be about doing the ‘right thing’. I’ve never heard what the time limit is for this. Maybe there is one that I’m not aware of.

For example: if that save had happened in the first minute of the period and someone discovers it during the last minute of the period, do they have to replay 18 minutes of that period ? I can just imagine the US networks trying to digest that one. Or to go to the extreme, can we run the tape on the Gretzky-Kerry Fraser bad call in ’93 and replay the playoffs from that point next week ? I still think that team could beat those Habs. Obviously, that second one is silly but it underscores the need for some sort of statute of limitations.

If the ref doesn’t call for it and the team doesn’t call for it, I’m inclined to believe that’s where the statute of limitations ought to kick in. It seem both practical and fair.

Well, official rules, 39.1 (v)
No goal may be awarded (or disallowed) as a result of video review once the puck has been dropped and play has resumed following the first stoppage of play after the potential goal.

Otherwise, everything else in the rules says the video judge can make that call, and did.

So, did the play resume? ( I left the room and missed it all)

It makes sense, as a fan it seemed really odd to go to commercial and have a play that happened over a minute ago result in a goal. I still think there's the unlikely potential for disaster with a rule like this, I've never seen a situation where the ref calls a goal doesn't go to video review and before the next puck is dropped head office calls and tells them it was no goal.

[MikeC_81]

And that's wrong. The refs have a whistle. They can blow the play dead any time they want. If the ref thought it went in, he should've blown it dead right away and gone upstairs.

If the ref had done that last night, I wouldn't be saying anything. My issue is with the head office meddling in the outcome of the game. It's bad enough that the refs make so many bogus calls during a game...now we've got the head office making decisions on games they aren't even attending.

Ya, damn that video replay!  Who do they think they are, making the right call...the nerve 

Once again, you're missing the point. I am not against video replay. I am not against the referee going upstairs to check. I am against the head office calling down and giving a break to one team, while doing a disservice to another. If the ref made the call, then fine...but he didn't.

How the hell is it head office giving a team a break by making the right call.  You make no sense.

[MikeC_81]

I'm not arguing against video review. I'm arguing against the head office making the call instead of the referee.

If the ref had blown the play dead and gone upstairs, I wouldn't be saying anything because I saw as much as everyone else that the puck clearly went in. I don't think the head office should be going out of their way to overrule the referees.

I think they got that one correct, and did everything correct.  It's just from a Leaf fans perspective so much time had gone by afterwords, and Ottawa didn't even say boo, and only because of a commercial following that seqeunce was anything able to happen.  They had to set the clock way back and the Leafs had something going at that point too.  Major momentum killer and just added to a frustrating outcome.

Ugh...I'm not saying it was the wrong call. I'm saying I don't agree with the league stepping in and making the decision. That should be left in the hands of the referees. That's what they put them on the ice for.

You still have not made a single compelling argument as to why making the right call is wrong.

Ref's make mistakes.  If the head office with superior resources than just a set of human eyes can make the right call then they should make it.

Under no circumstances should the league fail to correct a mistake on the ice whenever possible.

[MF37]

Ref's make mistakes.  If the head office with superior resources than just a set of human eyes can make the right call then they should make it.

What's the cut-off here? A mistake is a mistake right? Is it just scoring? Penalties? A missed off-side call? What's worthy of the call from the war-room?

Under no circumstances should the league fail to correct a mistake on the ice whenever possible.

It's funny to think that a face-off is all the circumstance required for the league not to correct a mistake.

Had the refs dropped the puck after the next whistle, the league wouldn't have been able to make that call.  Instead, a TV timeout changes the score and possibly the outcome of the game.

Ultimately, the right call was made on the goal, but I'd prefer the on-ice officials call the game. If they feel the need for additional assistance or the assurance from the HD cams, slow-mo replays etc., let the refs pick-up the phone and call the war room.

The precedence has now been set that the NHL will proactively intervene in these situations. It will be interesting to see if the NHL sticks to this. I'd also love to know what the refs think of league offices calling up rinks to overturn calls.

[MrT]

So if all of this stuff is reviewable, why isn't it that penalty calls can't be reviewed, or that non-calls can't be called? If you're going to use video review, I would almost perfer to see a NFL type system employed where you have to appeal to video review and if the call is upheld you burn a time out and if it isn't upheld you don't.

I'd prefer it and I like the NFL system that provides limits. Maybe as LK suggests, if the appeal doesn't go your way, the team has to serve 2 - like they used to do with stick curvature infractions.

The networks won't tolerate dragging the game out so the number of appeals allowed would have to be small.

Yeah. I like LK's suggestion too. It allows a team to question a call but imposes a suitable disincentive to abuse it.

* MrT nominates LK as the next chair of the NHL Competition Committee.

[TML fan]

I'm not arguing against video review. I'm arguing against the head office making the call instead of the referee.

If the ref had blown the play dead and gone upstairs, I wouldn't be saying anything because I saw as much as everyone else that the puck clearly went in. I don't think the head office should be going out of their way to overrule the referees.

I think they got that one correct, and did everything correct.  It's just from a Leaf fans perspective so much time had gone by afterwords, and Ottawa didn't even say boo, and only because of a commercial following that seqeunce was anything able to happen.  They had to set the clock way back and the Leafs had something going at that point too.  Major momentum killer and just added to a frustrating outcome.

Ugh...I'm not saying it was the wrong call. I'm saying I don't agree with the league stepping in and making the decision. That should be left in the hands of the referees. That's what they put them on the ice for.

You still have not made a single compelling argument as to why making the right call is wrong.

Ref's make mistakes.  If the head office with superior resources than just a set of human eyes can make the right call then they should make it.

Under no circumstances should the league fail to correct a mistake on the ice whenever possible.

Yes refs do make mistakes, and that's the human element of the game. As the poster above said, why not correct bad penalties? Offsides? If the refs make mistakes and the head office has superior resources to correct those mistakes, why not simply eliminate the refs and have the head office make every decision, mistake free?

My argument is not against making the right call. My argument is about leaving it in the hands of the referee. That's what they are there for. If they are going to have decisions made for them, then get them off the ice because the surface is small enough as it is without 4 useless bodies crowding it up.

[cw]

I'm not arguing against video review. I'm arguing against the head office making the call instead of the referee.

If the ref had blown the play dead and gone upstairs, I wouldn't be saying anything because I saw as much as everyone else that the puck clearly went in. I don't think the head office should be going out of their way to overrule the referees.

I think they got that one correct, and did everything correct.  It's just from a Leaf fans perspective so much time had gone by afterwords, and Ottawa didn't even say boo, and only because of a commercial following that seqeunce was anything able to happen.  They had to set the clock way back and the Leafs had something going at that point too.  Major momentum killer and just added to a frustrating outcome.

Ugh...I'm not saying it was the wrong call. I'm saying I don't agree with the league stepping in and making the decision. That should be left in the hands of the referees. That's what they put them on the ice for.

You still have not made a single compelling argument as to why making the right call is wrong.

Ref's make mistakes.  If the head office with superior resources than just a set of human eyes can make the right call then they should make it.

Under no circumstances should the league fail to correct a mistake on the ice whenever possible.

Yes refs do make mistakes, and that's the human element of the game. As the poster above said, why not correct bad penalties? Offsides? If the refs make mistakes and the head office has superior resources to correct those mistakes, why not simply eliminate the refs and have the head office make every decision, mistake free?

My argument is not against making the right call. My argument is about leaving it in the hands of the referee. That's what they are there for. If they are going to have decisions made for them, then get them off the ice because the surface is small enough as it is without 4 useless bodies crowding it up.

That assumes that the cameras can see and hear everything and have a feel for the game. I don't think they can.