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Burke on the situation in Sochi

Burke put it pretty well.

?I think a boycott is misplaced. A boycott punishes the athletes.?

?The appropriate measure should be that as long as these laws are on the books, Russia should not be awarded another international competition.?
 
i do understand the idea that we shouldn't punish the athletes ..so maybe the games go on..but should the nhl be there?  I don't think so.  These guys haven't trained specifically all their life for this.  They're highly paid athletes that compete for the money they earn in the NHL and while I have enjoyed watching the nhl players at the olympics I think not going would certainly send a message.

let them have their gold in hockey..they can always remember how they got it ...
 
I applaud Burke's stance.  It is so helpful when a guy who is otherwise so "old school, macho" is so supportive.

I've heard though that athletes are not allowed to make political statements (or risk being barred by the IOC?). I dont know the situation with coaches.  I worry Burke's protest suggestion will cause a problem there.  But I firmly agree that a boycott would hurt athletes and wouldn't be a good move. I also agree that no further international competition should be held in Russia until the law changes.
 
Snoop Lion said:
Burke put it pretty well.

?I think a boycott is misplaced. A boycott punishes the athletes.?

?The appropriate measure should be that as long as these laws are on the books, Russia should not be awarded another international competition.?
Click to expand...

I think I agree with that in general but I sometimes worry that it's precisely the former sentence that makes the latter so toothless. So long as your big international sporting organizations don't face actual consequences for ignoring these things you're counting on them to make a stand on principal alone which has not been their strong suit in the past. I think, for instance, about Qatar hosting the 2022 World Cup and the impact a Sochi boycott might have on them if they want their big event to be a success.
 
Ilya Kovalchuk...?I agree, of course,?...?I?m Russian and we all have to respect that. It?s personal and, like I said, it?s a free world, but that?s our line. That?s our country, so everybody has to respect that.?

Sidney Crosby...?I think that everyone has an equal right to play and I think we?ve been supportive of that,? he said. ?With the Olympics and the controversy around that, I think those decisions and those laws aren?t necessarily something that I agree with personally . . . their laws and their views.?

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/ilya-kovalchuk-weighs-russia-anti-gay-laws-agree-211018223.html
 
hockeyfan1 said:
Ilya Kovalchuk...?I agree, of course,?...?I?m Russian and we all have to respect that. It?s personal and, like I said, it?s a free world, but that?s our line. That?s our country, so everybody has to respect that.?

Sidney Crosby...?I think that everyone has an equal right to play and I think we?ve been supportive of that,? he said. ?With the Olympics and the controversy around that, I think those decisions and those laws aren?t necessarily something that I agree with personally . . . their laws and their views.?

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/ilya-kovalchuk-weighs-russia-anti-gay-laws-agree-211018223.html
Click to expand...

respect that?  ...i guess i can't ..you don't choose to be gay..this would be like Russia saying that you can't tell kids that black people exist ...and that anything they did to make themselves known would be illegal because it might teach kids that there are black people... 

something like the olympics is meant to be even more inclusive.  It's a joke that the olympics would look this over and no it's not like having the olympics in other countries that have human rights violations.  Sadly the olympics were able to hide behind the fact that that was "just" internal politics in the past.  These laws though actually directly interfere with the participation of some people with these games.  the actual athletes themselves are told there is something fundamentally illegal about who they are.  This not only violates the Olympic charter ..it violates what they supposedly stand for. 

but we should respect that ....BS there is nothing that demands respect there.  Only derision.

(btw none of this is directed at you hockeyfan ...i know you were just posting the quotation)
 
Nik the Trik said:
Snoop Lion said:
Burke put it pretty well.

?I think a boycott is misplaced. A boycott punishes the athletes.?

?The appropriate measure should be that as long as these laws are on the books, Russia should not be awarded another international competition.?
Click to expand...

I think I agree with that in general but I sometimes worry that it's precisely the former sentence that makes the latter so toothless. So long as your big international sporting organizations don't face actual consequences for ignoring these things you're counting on them to make a stand on principal alone which has not been their strong suit in the past. I think, for instance, about Qatar hosting the 2022 World Cup and the impact a Sochi boycott might have on them if they want their big event to be a success.
Click to expand...

I agree. I'll admit though that part of my reasons for not wanting to see a boycott are selfish. I just want to watch the Olympics with all its competition there intact.
 
crazyperfectdevil said:
hockeyfan1 said:
Ilya Kovalchuk...?I agree, of course,?...?I?m Russian and we all have to respect that. It?s personal and, like I said, it?s a free world, but that?s our line. That?s our country, so everybody has to respect that.?

Sidney Crosby...?I think that everyone has an equal right to play and I think we?ve been supportive of that,? he said. ?With the Olympics and the controversy around that, I think those decisions and those laws aren?t necessarily something that I agree with personally . . . their laws and their views.?

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/ilya-kovalchuk-weighs-russia-anti-gay-laws-agree-211018223.html
Click to expand...

respect that?  ...i guess i can't ..you don't choose to be gay..this would be like Russia saying that you can't tell kids that black people exist ...and that anything they did to make themselves known would be illegal because it might teach kids that there are black people... 

something like the olympics is meant to be even more inclusive.  It's a joke that the olympics would look this over and no it's not like having the olympics in other countries that have human rights violations.  Sadly the olympics were able to hide behind the fact that that was "just" internal politics in the past.  These laws though actually directly interfere with the participation of some people with these games.  the actual athletes themselves are told there is something fundamentally illegal about who they are.  This not only violates the Olympic charter ..it violates what they supposedly stand for. 

but we should respect that ....BS there is nothing that demands respect there.  Only derision.

(btw none of this is directed at you hockeyfan ...i know you were just posting the quotation)
Click to expand...
I don't know if we should respect the gay law itself, but can we not respect Russia's cultural differences and their sovereign right to do what they want within their borders? From what I understand, the law has garnered far-reaching support among the Russian people. I don't agree with the particular law, but I also don't think the Olympics should be a heavily politicized event of Russia-bashing for passing a law their own people heavily support.
 
KoHo said:
I don't know if we should respect the gay law itself, but can we not respect Russia's cultural differences and their sovereign right to do what they want within their borders? From what I understand, the law has garnered far-reaching support among the Russian people. I don't agree with the particular law, but I also don't think the Olympics should be a heavily politicized event of Russia-bashing for passing a law their own people heavily support.
Click to expand...

In a state that's increasingly criminalizing unpopular opinions and throwing dissidents in jail for criticizing any aspect of the state that Putin wants to protect(See members of a punk band getting two years in jail for a song that criticizes the government or people in a peaceful march being arrested because it "mocks" religion here) I don't know how heavily I'd lean on the idea of popular support for a law giving it any sort of legitimacy.

This is a law that criminalizes speaking out on an issue and you think people should lend it cultural weight...because people aren't speaking out against it? 
 
crazyperfectdevil said:
These laws though actually directly interfere with the participation of some people with these games.  the actual athletes themselves are told there is something fundamentally illegal about who they are.
Click to expand...

Let's not blow this out of proportion.  There is nothing that is going to happen that will interfere with the athlete's participation.  "Homosexuality was decriminalized in Russia in 1993 and Russian officials have been at pains to emphasize that the law does not penalize gay orientation or activity" (link below).

Now, if some foreign gay athletes were planning on having a parade, that would be different.  This would not be met with a lot of delight from the locals.  So, as long as they reserve this for their own country, they will be fine.
They could probably hold hands and normal amounts of PDA would likely be fine too.
Really they should be there to be bobsledding and such.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/more-sports/russia-tells-ioc-gays-will-be-free-from-discrimination-in-sochi-but-defends-law-on-propaganda/article13911693/
 
hap_leaf said:
crazyperfectdevil said:
These laws though actually directly interfere with the participation of some people with these games.  the actual athletes themselves are told there is something fundamentally illegal about who they are.
Click to expand...

Let's not blow this out of proportion.  There is nothing that is going to happen that will interfere with the athlete's participation.  "Homosexuality was decriminalized in Russia in 1993 and Russian officials have been at pains to emphasize that the law does not penalize gay orientation or activity" (link below).

Now, if some foreign gay athletes were planning on having a parade, that would be different.  This would not be met with a lot of delight from the locals.  So, as long as they reserve this for their own country, they will be fine.
They could probably hold hands and normal amounts of PDA would likely be fine too.
Really they should be there to be bobsledding and such.
Click to expand...

But there are two problems with that 1) the vagueness of the law does not distinguish what is actually meant by "propaganda" and 2) the main problem with 1 is that this is not an isolated circumstance. Russia has, as I mentioned in my last post, arrested, tried and convicted people of "hooliganism" for criticizing the government. They've arrested people for "mocking religion" by having a peaceful march with collanders on their heads. In view of those facts how sure can you be that a gay athlete holding their partner's hand won't be considered "information about non-traditional sexual relationships"?
 
Nik the Trik said:
hap_leaf said:
crazyperfectdevil said:
These laws though actually directly interfere with the participation of some people with these games.  the actual athletes themselves are told there is something fundamentally illegal about who they are.
Click to expand...

Let's not blow this out of proportion.  There is nothing that is going to happen that will interfere with the athlete's participation.  "Homosexuality was decriminalized in Russia in 1993 and Russian officials have been at pains to emphasize that the law does not penalize gay orientation or activity" (link below).

Now, if some foreign gay athletes were planning on having a parade, that would be different.  This would not be met with a lot of delight from the locals.  So, as long as they reserve this for their own country, they will be fine.
They could probably hold hands and normal amounts of PDA would likely be fine too.
Really they should be there to be bobsledding and such.
Click to expand...

But there are two problems with that 1) the vagueness of the law does not distinguish what is actually meant by "propaganda" and 2) the main problem with 1 is that this is not an isolated circumstance. Russia has, as I mentioned in my last post, arrested, tried and convicted people of "hooliganism" for criticizing the government. They've arrested people for "mocking religion" by having a peaceful march with collanders on their heads. In view of those facts how sure can you be that a gay athlete holding their partner's hand won't be considered "information about non-traditional sexual relationships"?
Click to expand...

There's just no telling for sure, so I agree Nik.  The vagueness is a concern for the general Russian public and they shouldn't have to live in fear.  But if I was a foreign gay athlete, I'm thinking I'd have to do something extraordinary (and planned) to be admonished and bring world wide scrutiny on the Russian gov't.  They will be there for such a short time relative to the citizens, I can't picture what they would need to do to test this.

Without a clear legal definition of ?propaganda? or ?nontraditional sexual relations? anything is possible.  But the main point being that I am fairly confident that a gay athlete will have no issue just for being gay and be able to perform in their sport like any other Olympics.
 
I really wish that the horrible conditions and violence against women in MANY countries around the world received this kind of press, discussion and public outcry.

 
Britishbulldog said:
I really wish that the horrible conditions and violence against women in MANY countries around the world received this kind of press, discussion and public outcry.
Click to expand...

Well that's the hidden shame in all of this. This policy is so regressive that people are fighting battles that should have been settled long ago as opposed to looking forward to other issues.
 
I saw this posted on the sites front page, and since I know some of you don't wander over there I thought I'd post a link here:

http://www.tmlfans.ca/blogs/couchs-corner/9137-coming-out-gay

It's about Matt Horner from the blog Five for Fighting coming out as gay and how the Burke's and the YCP project helped him.
 
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