Coach Mike Babcock

[disco]

Thinkin' about them Babsocks the other day and I think it's swell of the guy to lend his visage to a fun product like that. He probably doesn't see a cent (not like he needs it) and knowing him all he asked was a percentage to charity. Not many high end professionals would not take themselves too seriously like that.

 

[leafsjunkie]

Something I've been thinking about. How long does Mike have?

I'd say two seasons.
If he doesn't bring us the cup or finals, I'd say Dubas may pull the trigger.

Will Sheldon still be here with the organization then, to take over?

What say you?

(I think Sheldon will stay with the organization, on that appeal, to be the next one to run the big club, unless obviously some up and coming team, gives him a real fantastic opportunity, which I don't know who that would be).

 

[Zee]

Something I've been thinking about. How long does Mike have?

I'd say two seasons.
If he doesn't bring us the cup or finals, I'd say Dubas may pull the trigger.

Will Sheldon still be here with the organization then, to take over?

What say you?

(I think Sheldon will stay with the organization, on that appeal, to be the next one to run the big club, unless obviously some up and coming team, gives him a real fantastic opportunity, which I don't know who that would be).

Babcock has faced absolutely no heat up until this point as expectations weren't as high.  This is really the first season the Leafs are expected to be true contenders.  If they fall short of even the conference finals I think questions will start to be asked.  A lot depends on how the team plays too, can he coach them into a better system that limits opposition shots? 

Stories have already been talked about Babcock and how he hasn't managed to get out of the first round of the playoffs for a number of tries now.  If he's really the best coach in hockey as he believes himself to be, we should expect the Leafs to take a giant step forward this season given the forward talent they have (barring major injuries of course)

 

[OldTimeHockey]

If the Leafs go into the playoffs and Andersen once again craps the bed or the defence looks anything similar to what it has looked like in the preseason, then I think the issues fall at the feet of management.

I also don't think that Babcock believes himself to be the best coach in hockey. The media anointed him that.

 

[Zee]

If the Leafs go into the playoffs and Andersen once again craps the bed or the defence looks anything similar to what it has looked like in the preseason, then I think the issues fall at the feet of management.

I also don't think that Babcock believes himself to be the best coach in hockey. The media anointed him that.

Really?  Babcock has a huge ego.  I wouldn't doubt he thinks of himself as the best.  You get that impression any time a question is asked of him regarding a line up decision. "I know best" is his usual response.

 

[Kin]

I don't get the sense that Babcock needs to do anything in particular to keep himself safe. And I agree that the idea that he'd consider himself the best coach in the league isn't consistent with what I've seen of him. My guess is he'd find the concept pretty meaningless.

I think Dubas is generally bright enough to know that just firing someone for not attaining a level of success that is hoped for or expected isn't usually the best way to go about things without there being a specific problem that the coach is either unable or unwilling to resolve.

 

[Hobbes]

...I think Dubas is generally bright enough to know that just firing someone for not attaining a level of success that is hoped for or expected isn't usually the best way to go about things without there being a specific problem that the coach is either unable or unwilling to resolve.

Plus so many factors out of the control of the coach (or management or players) that can affect a playoff run. All it takes is a slapshot on the last game of the regular season during a Leaf powerplay that riccochet's off Matthews and into Tavares, shattering one's wrist and breaking the other's ankle. Kiss any playoff hopes goodbye.

As you say, it would take a specific issue that a coach is capable of solving and for some reason refuses to. I've always had the sense the Mike is pretty open to suggestion as long as it's backed up, and Dubas has always come across as someone who is very open to debating such things, so I have some trouble imagining such a scenario.

My guess would be that Babcock's tenure will end when he loses the room in a way similar to what was reported to be happening towards the end in Detroit. He's so intense all the time, and constantly pushing and needling, so I expect he has a shelf life after which that ceases to be effective (much like Keenan or Torts or Bowman for that matter). He hasn't hit that point yet, and isn't likely to this year. I would think he has 3 or 4 year leash remaining as long as the team is performing in that 100+ point pace and winning a round or two each year in the playoffs. Hopefully one of those will be a Cup run, but as the Caps and Bolts can attest it might take a few kicks at the can before eventually succeeding.

 

[herman]

...I think Dubas is generally bright enough to know that just firing someone for not attaining a level of success that is hoped for or expected isn't usually the best way to go about things without there being a specific problem that the coach is either unable or unwilling to resolve.

Plus so many factors out of the control of the coach (or management or players) that can affect a playoff run. All it takes is a slapshot on the last game of the regular season during a Leaf powerplay that riccochet's off Matthews and into Tavares, shattering one's wrist and breaking the other's ankle. Kiss any playoff hopes goodbye.

As you say, it would take a specific issue that a coach is capable of solving and for some reason refuses to. I've always had the sense the Mike is pretty open to suggestion as long as it's backed up, and Dubas has always come across as someone who is very open to debating such things, so I have some trouble imagining such a scenario.

My guess would be that Babcock's tenure will end when he loses the room in a way similar to what was reported to be happening towards the end in Detroit. He's so intense all the time, and constantly pushing and needling, so I expect he has a shelf life after which that ceases to be effective (much like Keenan or Torts or Bowman for that matter). He hasn't hit that point yet, and isn't likely to this year. I would think he has 3 or 4 year leash remaining as long as the team is performing in that 100+ point pace and winning a round or two each year in the playoffs. Hopefully one of those will be a Cup run, but as the Caps and Bolts can attest it might take a few kicks at the can before eventually succeeding.

YES.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

If the Leafs go into the playoffs and Andersen once again craps the bed or the defence looks anything similar to what it has looked like in the preseason, then I think the issues fall at the feet of management.

I also don't think that Babcock believes himself to be the best coach in hockey. The media anointed him that.

Really?  Babcock has a huge ego.  I wouldn't doubt he thinks of himself as the best.  You get that impression any time a question is asked of him regarding a line up decision. "I know best" is his usual response.

So because he's confident as a coach means he has a huge ego? He's the head coach. He's supposed to be confident in his decisions. Much like anyone, in any job, when you start questioning your own decisions, you start faltering.

Babcock has a longer leash then what is being suggested. The team is just taking shape. The goaltending is still a bit suspect and the defence is highly concerning. I don't think the pressure is as much on him, as it will be in a year or two.

 

[Zee]

If the Leafs go into the playoffs and Andersen once again craps the bed or the defence looks anything similar to what it has looked like in the preseason, then I think the issues fall at the feet of management.

I also don't think that Babcock believes himself to be the best coach in hockey. The media anointed him that.

Really?  Babcock has a huge ego.  I wouldn't doubt he thinks of himself as the best.  You get that impression any time a question is asked of him regarding a line up decision. "I know best" is his usual response.

So because he's confident as a coach means he has a huge ego? He's the head coach. He's supposed to be confident in his decisions. Much like anyone, in any job, when you start questioning your own decisions, you start faltering.

Babcock has a longer leash then what is being suggested. The team is just taking shape. The goaltending is still a bit suspect and the defence is highly concerning. I don't think the pressure is as much on him, as it will be in a year or two.

This is his 4th season as head coach.  How many coaches get a 6-7 year leash on results?  They'll be questions about Babcock if the team doesn't show marked improvement in this year's playoffs.

 

[Kin]

This is his 4th season as head coach.  How many coaches get a 6-7 year leash on results?

The glib answer to that might be the same number of coaches who get publicly pursued by teams and signed to 8 year/50 million dollar deals.

More seriously though, it's not giving him a 6-7 year leash on results. It's acknowledging that he's mostly gotten good results given what he's had to work with over those 3 years and acknowledging that a year where that doesn't happen probably wouldn't change conclusions reached already.

 

[L K]

This is his 4th season as head coach.  How many coaches get a 6-7 year leash on results?

The glib answer to that might be the same number of coaches who get publicly pursued by teams and signed to 8 year/50 million dollar deals.

More seriously though, it's not giving him a 6-7 year leash on results. It's acknowledging that he's mostly gotten good results given what he's had to work with over those 3 years and acknowledging that a year where that doesn't happen probably wouldn't change conclusions reached already.

Yeah, I think if we have two straight years of struggles now with expectations you will start to questions or if he has more issues with Matthews it might come to a head where you have to keep your star player happy.

 

[Zee]

Speaking of coach, he'll be on Overdrive today at 4:05

 

[Zee]

This is his 4th season as head coach.  How many coaches get a 6-7 year leash on results?

The glib answer to that might be the same number of coaches who get publicly pursued by teams and signed to 8 year/50 million dollar deals.

More seriously though, it's not giving him a 6-7 year leash on results. It's acknowledging that he's mostly gotten good results given what he's had to work with over those 3 years and acknowledging that a year where that doesn't happen probably wouldn't change conclusions reached already.

Yeah, I think if we have two straight years of struggles now with expectations you will start to questions or if he has more issues with Matthews it might come to a head where you have to keep your star player happy.

We've seen examples of coaches ousted when expectations aren't in line with what management thinks, even if the team is playing relatively well.  2 come to mind both from Pittsburgh -- Michel Therrien loses in the Stanley Cup final one year, Pittsburgh gets off to a slow start the following season, he's canned and replaced mid season with Dan Bylsma and Pens win Cup that same season.  Then, again in Pitt, Mike Johnston loses in first round of playoffs, Pens get off to slow start (actually over .500) the following season and he's fired for Mike Sullivan who then goes on to win back to back Cups.

 

[herman]

We've seen examples of coaches ousted when expectations aren't in line with what management thinks, even if the team is playing relatively well.  2 come to mind both from Pittsburgh -- Michel Therrien loses in the Stanley Cup final one year, Pittsburgh gets off to a slow start the following season, he's canned and replaced mid season with Dan Bylsma and Pens win Cup that same season.  Then, again in Pitt, Mike Johnston loses in first round of playoffs, Pens get off to slow start (actually over .500) the following season and he's fired for Mike Sullivan who then goes on to win back to back Cups.

It's almost as if it's not the coaches that win Cups...

 

[Kin]

We've seen examples of coaches ousted when expectations aren't in line with what management thinks, even if the team is playing relatively well.  2 come to mind both from Pittsburgh -- Michel Therrien loses in the Stanley Cup final one year, Pittsburgh gets off to a slow start the following season, he's canned and replaced mid season with Dan Bylsma and Pens win Cup that same season.  Then, again in Pitt, Mike Johnston loses in first round of playoffs, Pens get off to slow start (actually over .500) the following season and he's fired for Mike Sullivan who then goes on to win back to back Cups.

But again, were those guys fired because they weren't meeting expectations or were they fired because there were actual problems that needed solving?

Even if you wanted to attribute those turnarounds to the coaches it seems to me that those turnarounds are indications of the latter.

 

[Zee]

We've seen examples of coaches ousted when expectations aren't in line with what management thinks, even if the team is playing relatively well.  2 come to mind both from Pittsburgh -- Michel Therrien loses in the Stanley Cup final one year, Pittsburgh gets off to a slow start the following season, he's canned and replaced mid season with Dan Bylsma and Pens win Cup that same season.  Then, again in Pitt, Mike Johnston loses in first round of playoffs, Pens get off to slow start (actually over .500) the following season and he's fired for Mike Sullivan who then goes on to win back to back Cups.

But again, were those guys fired because they weren't meeting expectations or were they fired because there were actual problems that needed solving?

Even if you wanted to attribute those turnarounds to the coaches it seems to me that those turnarounds are indications of the latter.

There have already been reports of a "not seeing eye to eye" between Matthews and Babcock. Things can change very quickly between players and coaches especially when things aren't going well. I'm not saying Babcock is on the hot seat, but could I see it happening if the team falls way short of expectations this year, yeah for sure.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

There have already been reports of a "not seeing eye to eye" between Matthews and Babcock. Things can change very quickly between players and coaches especially when things aren't going well.

I think Babcock has done a fabulous job in his part of taking this train wreck of a franchise into something respectable. I would certainly hope that would include not kowtowing to the wishes of 19 year olds, no matter how talented they are.

If the Leafs get shown the door in the first round again this year, it'll be disappointing, but I consider this really his first kick at the cat, considering the still maturing core of the team and how they're structured to peak. One could make a solid case that even this year should be more about development than success.

Ultimately, the entire management group has to wear failures. I doubt Dubas is going to be in any rush to take an accomplished coach like Babcock and throw him under the bus, particularly due to the optics of having really nothing on his own NHL resume.

 

[Frank E]

One thing about this season is that they'll have a fair bit of cap space, at least it looks like so right now, and that could bode well for picking up a d-man at the deadline, or even a backup goalie if they think Sparks isn't going to cut it.

 

[Zee]

One thing about this season is that they'll have a fair bit of cap space, at least it looks like so right now, and that could bode well for picking up a d-man at the deadline, or even a backup goalie if they think Sparks isn't going to cut it.

They'll have one of Pickard or McElhinney, I can't imagine both get claimed off waivers, so someone will be there in case Sparks falters