Leafs @ Avs - Dec. 22nd, 9:00pm - TSN4, Fan 590

[CarltonTheBear]

@

12-12-7, 31 points | 11-19-1, 23 points

Projected Lines

JVR-Kadri-Marner Hyman-Matthews-Brown Komarov-Gauthier-Soshnikov Martin-Froese-Nylander Rielly-Zaitsev Gardiner-Carrick Hunwick-Polak Andersen ​

Landeskog-MacKinnon-Bourque Grigorenko-Duchene-Rantanen Comeau-Mitchell-Iginla McLeod-Soderberg-Colborne Tyutin-Barrie Beauchemin-Goloubef Zadorov-Wiercioch Varlamov​

Scratches

Frank Corrado Josh Leivo ​

Eric Gelinas Andrea Martinsen​

Game Notes

TOR
?Andersen (12-8-6, 2.65 GAA, .918 Sv%) will start for the Leafs
?Lines are based on yesterday's practice... they're also based on an indifference toward winning by the looks of it

COL
?Varlamov (6-13-0, 3.15 GAA, .906 Sv%) likely starts for the Avs
?Matt Duchene has 8 points in his last 8 games
Injuries

?Nathan Horton - Back - Out indefinitely ?Joffrey Lupul - ?\_(ツ)_/? - Out indefinitely ?Stephane Robidas - Old - Out indefinitely ?Martin Marincin - Lower Body - Injured Reserve ?Ben Smith - Hand - Injured Reserve ?Tyler Bozak - Lower Body - Out Thursday​

?Erik Johnson - Leg - Injured Reserve​

Stream Options

https://www.reddit.com/r/NHLstreams
​

 

[Boston Leaf]

Gotta beat them this time around....Don't we?

 

[Frank E]

So Duchene is back playing centre I take it...I can't believe that Mitchell on the top line didn't work out.

 

[Kin]

See, this is why I think people don't have the Leafs' relative level of talent in perspective. There were objections when I said their talent level was in the bottom third but look at this, the worst team in the league. Their top two lines have guys picked at 1, 2, 3, 10 and 12. The first three have all been named to Olympic/World Cup teams and the latter two are both young and both have proven that they can score in the AHL. Their goalie is a former Vezina finalist and was Russia's #1 at the 2014 Olympics. On the back end they've got another former #1 pick and a 25 year old 50 point scorer as well as some high draft picks with skill.

All teams in the league right now have talent. Yeah there are a few that look a little gray in comparison with the top flight teams but guys like Matthews, Marner and Nylander don't vault the Leafs into the upper echelons.

 

[Redleaf]

See, this is why I think people don't have the Leafs' relative level of talent in perspective. There were objections when I said their talent level was in the bottom third but look at this, the worst team in the league. Their top two lines have guys picked at 1, 2, 3, 10 and 12. The first three have all been named to Olympic/World Cup teams and the latter two are both young and both have proven that they can score in the AHL. Their goalie is a former Vezina finalist and was Russia's #1 at the 2014 Olympics. On the back end they've got another former #1 pick and a 25 year old 50 point scorer as well as some high draft picks with skill.

All teams in the league right now have talent. Yeah there are a few that look a little gray in comparison with the top flight teams but guys like Matthews, Marner and Nylander don't vault the Leafs into the upper echelons.

No. Not alone they don't. Combined with great coaching, goaltending and management, I think in time this team will be among the upper echelon of NHL teams. Those three just give us a nice base to start out with.

 

[Kin]

No. Not alone they don't. Combined with great coaching, goaltending and management, I think in time this team will be among the upper echelon of NHL teams. Those three just give us a nice base to start out with.

I just meant talent wise. Whether or not the Leafs eventually build on them into something is a separate issue but realistically if/when that happens it'll be in part because they're probably going to get another couple of years where they're drafting fairly high and add to that base.

 

[Coco-puffs]

See, this is why I think people don't have the Leafs' relative level of talent in perspective. There were objections when I said their talent level was in the bottom third but look at this, the worst team in the league. Their top two lines have guys picked at 1, 2, 3, 10 and 12. The first three have all been named to Olympic/World Cup teams and the latter two are both young and both have proven that they can score in the AHL. Their goalie is a former Vezina finalist and was Russia's #1 at the 2014 Olympics. On the back end they've got another former #1 pick and a 25 year old 50 point scorer as well as some high draft picks with skill.

All teams in the league right now have talent. Yeah there are a few that look a little gray in comparison with the top flight teams but guys like Matthews, Marner and Nylander don't vault the Leafs into the upper echelons.

I don't think anyone said the Leafs are in the Upper-Echelon's in terms of talent on their roster.  I said they are somewhere in the middle in terms of talent, but are in the bottom of the standings due to inexperience.  They are, after all, the youngest team in the NHL.

I'll give you a list of teams that I would not trade rosters with at this time.  They may be ahead of the Leafs in the standings, but they are not on the upswing and I don't consider them more talented.  And I'm ignoring prospects in each system.  Just the NHL roster.

Ottawa, Colorado, Detroit, New Jersey, NY Islanders, Minnesota, Vancouver.  Arizona is on the upswing, but I wouldn't trade rosters with them even with an eye on the future.

Here are some other teams who I would consider swapping rosters with, but probably wouldn't because we'd be no better in the next few years (either the same, or worse):

Edmonton (only because of McDavid are they not on the list above), Carolina, Buffalo, Boston

By my count, that's 12 teams I'm happier to have the Leafs roster over because I think they are more talented AND will get better instead of worse.

 

[Kin]

By my count, that's 12 teams I'm happier to have the Leafs roster over because I think they are more talented AND will get better instead of worse.

I really don't want to get into the exact same semantic debate with you(I'm still far more comfortable with "talent" as a synonym for "capability" than I am for "potential") so to you specifically all I'd say is I'd be happy to have that argument with you about teams like Colorado and Carolina and the Islanders and so on if it weren't for the fact that it would just boil down to our own opinions on how much potential for improvement various players have.

 

[disco]

Willie's back on the wing. A toe-drag coming out of the defensive zone and an undisciplined penalty were costly last game. Matthews and Marner are younger and just as skilled as Willie but they've got that area under control. I like Willie but I'm sure he'll be staying on the wing until he can be completely trusted at center position.

 

[ZBBM]

No. Not alone they don't. Combined with great coaching, goaltending and management, I think in time this team will be among the upper echelon of NHL teams. Those three just give us a nice base to start out with.

I just meant talent wise. Whether or not the Leafs eventually build on them into something is a separate issue but realistically if/when that happens it'll be in part because they're probably going to get another couple of years where they're drafting fairly high and add to that base.

Well, I think you could argue that they have underachieved strictly in terms of wins.  If Babcock/Lam/Shan were really interested in winning as many games as possible the lineup and roster decisions would have been considerably different, some of which, I don't think it's unreasonable to say, would have resulted in fewer blown leads early on.

I also think their forward talent right now is top half of the league.  The D is obviously the weak point and here I agree with you, is probably even worse than we think.  I don't consider either Rielly or Gardiner as legitimate top-pairing guys on a contender.

 

[Kin]

Well, I think you could argue that they have underachieved strictly in terms of wins.  If Babcock/Lam/Shan were really interested in winning as many games as possible the lineup and roster decisions would have been considerably different, some of which, I don't think it's unreasonable to say, would have resulted in fewer blown leads early on.

Eh, I'm not sure I'm with you there. While there are a handful of decisions I'd make differently in the service of winning more games I still think you're talking about if not rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic but rather, you know, cutting weight on a tug boat.

 

[ZBBM]

Well, I think you could argue that they have underachieved strictly in terms of wins.  If Babcock/Lam/Shan were really interested in winning as many games as possible the lineup and roster decisions would have been considerably different, some of which, I don't think it's unreasonable to say, would have resulted in fewer blown leads early on.

Eh, I'm not sure I'm with you there. While there are a handful of decisions I'd make differently in the service of winning more games I still think you're talking about if not rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic but rather, you know, cutting weight on a tug boat.

Admittedly, the craft we are talking about is not (yet) one of these:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/category/type/Cigarette

 

[CarltonTheBear]

If Babcock/Lam/Shan were really interested in winning as many games as possible the lineup and roster decisions would have been considerably different, some of which, I don't think it's unreasonable to say, would have resulted in fewer blown leads early on.

I'm kind of curious as to what you mean by this.

 

[bustaheims]

If Babcock/Lam/Shan were really interested in winning as many games as possible the lineup and roster decisions would have been considerably different, some of which, I don't think it's unreasonable to say, would have resulted in fewer blown leads early on.

I'm kind of curious as to what you mean by this.

I'm guessing he's alluding to keeping Laich, Greening, and Michalek on the roster - though, I don't that would have had much impact on the team's overall fortunes. The trade-offs there likely even out in the grand scheme of things. Maybe fewer blown leads, but, at the same time, I imagine there would have been fewer leads to be blown.

 

[ZBBM]

If Babcock/Lam/Shan were really interested in winning as many games as possible the lineup and roster decisions would have been considerably different, some of which, I don't think it's unreasonable to say, would have resulted in fewer blown leads early on.

I'm kind of curious as to what you mean by this.

I'm guessing he's alluding to keeping Laich, Greening, and Michalek on the roster - though, I don't that would have had much impact on the team's overall fortunes. The trade-offs there likely even out in the grand scheme of things. Maybe fewer blown leads, but, at the same time, I imagine there would have been fewer leads to be blown.

That yes (leaving Laich out of it, that is; Greening and Michalek are better players than Martin, Smith, soon-to-be-up Froese, so I don't agree that there would have been fewer leads to be blown).  But more than this, some of the lineup decisions.  In win-now mode I think we would have seen:

* More TOI earlier on for Matthews, and with different linemates (Greening say instead of Hyman)
* Less moving of Nylander up and down the lineup
* Less of the Hunlak pairing (and perhaps a different d-man signing than Polak to begin with)

etc etc.

But I think the brains are treating this, and probably next season too, as developmental years, which is of course the right thing to do.  Although I still think some of Babcock's lineup choices are perverse.

 

[bustaheims]

That yes (leaving Laich out of it, that is; Greening and Michalek are better players than Martin, Smith, soon-to-be-up Froese, so I don't agree that there would have been fewer leads to be blown). 

Well, the issue there is that they wouldn't be replacing those guys (especially Smith/Froese, as neither Greening nor Michalek play C - Laich, on the other hand, would move Smith/Froese out of the lineup). They'd be taking guys like Soshnikov, Brown, and/or Hyman out of the lineup. Their presence would change the dynamic of the team, the line combos, etc. It's sort of an unknowable situation, but I imagine the end result wouldn't be drastically different. I also don't think your other suggestions would have had much of an impact on things, either - maybe a point or two, but, that's about the extent of it.

 

[herman]

Willie's back on the wing. A toe-drag coming out of the defensive zone and an undisciplined penalty were costly last game. Matthews and Marner are younger and just as skilled as Willie but they've got that area under control. I like Willie but I'm sure he'll be staying on the wing until he can be completely trusted at center position.

My take on this is that Babcock did the same thing with Nylander vs Edm/Cgy last month (B2B on the road) by spreading his weapons to mess with match ups. Willy on the wing vs Willy in centre is not that big a deal as hockey is ridiculously fluid in action (Nylander played high man to Matthews regularly). Froese's capabilities might be part of the decision.

Last time, Nylander played a lesser role in game 1 vs Edm and was subsequently unleashed against Cgy.

Per Kristen Shilton, Babcock hasn't even mentioned the turnover to Nylander. He's a very flexible component of the lineup and Babcock is just using accordingly.

 

[cujo4ever]

Go Leafs Go!

 

[Kin]

Well, the issue there is that they wouldn't be replacing those guys (especially Smith/Froese, as neither Greening nor Michalek play C - Laich, on the other hand, would move Smith/Froese out of the lineup). They'd be taking guys like Soshnikov, Brown, and/or Hyman out of the lineup. Their presence would change the dynamic of the team, the line combos, etc. It's sort of an unknowable situation, but I imagine the end result wouldn't be drastically different. I also don't think your other suggestions would have had much of an impact on things, either - maybe a point or two, but, that's about the extent of it.

I don't get it. Why wouldn't Greening or Michalek be taking Martin out of the lineup?

 

[Zee]

Hoping they make it through tonight fine, looking more forward to tomorrow's game against Arizona (when the hell was that ever said before?) just because Auston Matthews goes home.  I REALLY REALLY hope he lights it up tomorrow night.