2025-26 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

[Guilt Trip]

Oh come on. If Lameriello didn't sign him to that stupid contract, Dubas wouldn't have been forced to make that trade. It's a pretty simple straight line. I don't know how this is a stretch at all. Dubas didn't create that mess.

And the thing was, everyone involved knew he wasn't playing the 3rd year of that contract here.

 

[Bender]

I do not think the core 4 was grossly overpaid by Dubas.
Tavares was a top UFA and probably could have got a little more.
Marner & Matthews have been top 10 scorers and good defensively since they came into the league
Nylander was a cut below because he was not great defensively and didn't rack up as much offensively.
But their contracts were in line with others in the league when you consider the timing of the signing, the duration, etc.
The NMCs were also common around the league.
Covid threw the cap growth off so they were cap tight to fill in the supporting cast

I'm so tired of the covid cap and "they were paid what they were worth" excuses. The whole league had to deal with the same cap and other players came due for contracts. Instead of pivoting when they knew the cap wasn't going up they doubled down on regular season success and playoff futility.

As for contracts, they played hardball with Willy and got him at a very good number (barring his first year) and refused to do that with Mitch and Auston and instead coddled them both, especially with Mitch's camp being highly unprofessional along the way. Point, Kucherov, Rantanen, Aho. The list goes on - the Leafs players had the most expensive contracts vs. their comparables, and the easy way to know that at minimum Mitch was overpaid was looking that he got barely over $1M raise from a contract he signed 6yrs prior.

If the management group had any stones like Vegas they'd have no problem trading one or both of them if they put themselves before the team.

 

[cw]

I take exception to this. I think there is some proof in the numbers. I've done no research on this but I can't think of another player entering free agency for the first time, coming off a career year, who signed for only a $1m increase on the yearly salary from their previous contract. To me, that shows Marner was overpaid on his previous deal.

There are two great comparable players in Point and specifically Rantanen. Marner received $10m more than Rantanen over the same time period, signed the same year, and I don't think it's a coincidence the signed identical 8-year/$96m contracts this past offseason.


(*I won't litigate what McDavid did. He clearly could have received $17m or more on his free agent deal if he so desired)

I don't agree.

Projections for Marner's contract on the open market were as high as $15.4/yr for 7 yrs
Most projections came in at $13.5 to $14/yr
He took $12 to go to a team he wanted that was very cap tight. Marner also could have received more if he desired.
Rantanen might still be with Colorado if he had been willing to take less.
Marner is tied for 7th with Crosby in scoring since he came into the league. He's always belonged in the very high rent district
He's outscored all the Leafs again this year and he put up more points in the playoffs and regular season while wearing blue & white.
He's +43 better than Rantanen since 2016-17 and put up a few more points.
More all star selections than Rantanen
Selke finalist - getting Selke votes annually unlike Rantanen
Team Canada Olympics 4th highest ice time among CDN forwards
Nations Cup I think he was 3rd in forward ice time - with Point's coach giving him more ice time than Point
Point scored significantly less and his +/- was about half of Marner's since 2016-17

 

[dappleganger]

I don't agree.

Projections for Marner's contract on the open market were as high as $15.4/yr for 7 yrs
Most projections came in at $13.5 to $14/yr
He took $12 to go to a team he wanted that was very cap tight. Marner also could have received more if he desired.
Rantanen might still be with Colorado if he had been willing to take less.
Marner is tied for 7th with Crosby in scoring since he came into the league. He's always belonged in the very high rent district
He's outscored all the Leafs again this year and he put up more points in the playoffs and regular season while wearing blue & white.
He's +43 better than Rantanen since 2016-17 and put up a few more points.
More all star selections than Rantanen
Selke finalist - getting Selke votes annually unlike Rantanen
Team Canada Olympics 4th highest ice time among CDN forwards
Nations Cup I think he was 3rd in forward ice time - with Point's coach giving him more ice time than Point
Point scored significantly less and his +/- was about half of Marner's since 2016-17

Crosby makes $8.7m

I honestly think we're having different arguments. I'm not saying Marner wasn't worth the contract he signed for, but that he got paid more than comparable players off of one point-per-game season when he signed in 2019.

Marner wasn’t wildly above market but relative to similar wingers at the time, he was about $1–2M higher than he should have been, especially for an RFA and for only a 6-year term.

 

[Arn]

But how sad it is that the owners have made fans dislike players for getting paid what they’re worth (or maybe claiming an extra few $x ) rather than just letting them be liked for being fun to watch.

 

[herman]

But how sad it is that the owners have made fans dislike players for getting paid what they’re worth (or maybe claiming an extra few $x ) rather than just letting them be liked for being fun to watch.

Normally yes. Marner is a separate case.

 

[cabber24]

I don't agree.

Projections for Marner's contract on the open market were as high as $15.4/yr for 7 yrs
Most projections came in at $13.5 to $14/yr
He took $12 to go to a team he wanted that was very cap tight. Marner also could have received more if he desired.
Rantanen might still be with Colorado if he had been willing to take less.
Marner is tied for 7th with Crosby in scoring since he came into the league. He's always belonged in the very high rent district
He's outscored all the Leafs again this year and he put up more points in the playoffs and regular season while wearing blue & white.
He's +43 better than Rantanen since 2016-17 and put up a few more points.
More all star selections than Rantanen
Selke finalist - getting Selke votes annually unlike Rantanen
Team Canada Olympics 4th highest ice time among CDN forwards
Nations Cup I think he was 3rd in forward ice time - with Point's coach giving him more ice time than Point
Point scored significantly less and his +/- was about half of Marner's since 2016-17

You forgot the part about him absolutely sucking in the playoffs from the beginning of time. Sucking relative to other sucking is still sucking.

 

[Bender]

I don't agree.

Projections for Marner's contract on the open market were as high as $15.4/yr for 7 yrs
Most projections came in at $13.5 to $14/yr
He took $12 to go to a team he wanted that was very cap tight. Marner also could have received more if he desired.
Rantanen might still be with Colorado if he had been willing to take less.
Marner is tied for 7th with Crosby in scoring since he came into the league. He's always belonged in the very high rent district
He's outscored all the Leafs again this year and he put up more points in the playoffs and regular season while wearing blue & white.
He's +43 better than Rantanen since 2016-17 and put up a few more points.
More all star selections than Rantanen
Selke finalist - getting Selke votes annually unlike Rantanen
Team Canada Olympics 4th highest ice time among CDN forwards
Nations Cup I think he was 3rd in forward ice time - with Point's coach giving him more ice time than Point
Point scored significantly less and his +/- was about half of Marner's since 2016-17

You really are telling on yourself by not including Rantanen's post-season numbers.

 

[Bender]

Crosby makes $8.7m

I honestly think we're having different arguments. I'm not saying Marner wasn't worth the contract he signed for, but that he got paid more than comparable players off of one point-per-game season when he signed in 2019.

Marner wasn’t wildly above market but relative to similar wingers at the time, he was about $1–2M higher than he should have been, especially for an RFA and for only a 6-year term.

Death by a thousand cuts.

 

[cw]

You forgot the part about him absolutely sucking in the playoffs from the beginning of time. Sucking relative to other sucking is still sucking.

He outscored all the other Leafs in the playoffs while he was here and led the forwards in +/- by a significant margin
His playoff ppg is top 5 in Leafs history .01 behind Sundin (30 or more GP)
If that is absolutely sucking, I don't know what else to say.
How come no one on his entire team could do better?

 

[cabber24]

He outscored all the other Leafs in the playoffs while he was here and led the forwards in +/- by a significant margin
His playoff ppg is top 5 in Leafs history .01 behind Sundin (30 or more GP)
If that is absolutely sucking, I don't know what else to say.
How come no one on his entire team could do better?

Sucking relative to other sucking is still sucking. No one believes he passed the eyeball test but you. Do you realize that?

 

[cw]

Sucking relative to other sucking is still sucking. No one believes he passed the eyeball test but you. Do you realize that?

Starting with his rookie season, Babcock gave Marner the 2nd most playoff ice time among Leafs forwards
Keefe & Berube gave Marner the most playoff ice time among Leafs forwards
Jon Cooper gave Marner 3rd most ice time among forwards at the Nations Cup, 4th most in the Olympics
George McPhee and Kelly McCrimmon just gave Marner a guaranteed contract for $96 million after he led the Leafs in scoring and playoff scoring while he was in Toronto.

You would think after the 7 Cups they collectively won (& other championships), they would be as hockey smart as you are to realize Marner "absolutely sucking in the playoffs". Maybe it is never too late to learn ...

 

[herman]

As a big time Marner hater, his playoff stats in the aggregate were fine. That said, he got progressively less effective relative to expectations the deeper the Leafs got into each series. If the argument then is, well who helped get the Leafs deep into the playoff series, then you kind of have to look at who is paid Take Over a Playoff Series money.

Coaches played him at 1D level TOI, which is their prerogative and if I honestly look at the rest of the lineups, I don't blame them for that choice (I do blame them for pushing him beyond the point of diminishing returns, especially in the regular season usage though). Marner was tied to the hip of their top scoring 1C, which again, on paper, because of his skillset, made plenty of sense for many reasons throughout the regular season. Unfortunately, when space got tight against committed defenses, Marner's skillset and defensive-minded conservativism did not help his line break through. Extra unfortunately, he aggressively negotiated a cap hit commensurate with a 1C, for his winger position at a time when the salary cap was most painful for the team, so fan sentiment compounded negatively and his public interactions with the media rarely ever assuaged anybody's perception that he was operating on petty entitlement. There's absolutely a universe in which the Toronto fanbase is unified in eating out of his hand the charming little crumbs of whimsy he brings to the Leafs if he made some different decisions and statements about that first extension, especially after witnessing McDavid get all the love for taking a significant long-term discount to help his team succeed.

Marner and Matthews being tied to the hip regardless of team result sort of sewered both their respective playoff performances. Marner always had the puck and tried to force it to Matthews against very set defensive structures, which led to turnovers or whatever, and that's 23M of the team not scoring when they needed to be scoring 60% of the team offense. Leafs special teams shat the bed every playoffs when they could have tilted a series in the positive direction, and both units were headlined by Marner and Matthews.

 

[Kaberle15]

So, Captain our Captain, any word on AM ? Or is he done for the season and the Leafs might not get into Playoffs ?

 

[ZBBM]

As a big time Marner hater, his playoff stats in the aggregate were fine. That said, he got progressively less effective relative to expectations the deeper the Leafs got into each series. If the argument then is, well who helped get the Leafs deep into the playoff series, then you kind of have to look at who is paid Take Over a Playoff Series money.

Coaches played him at 1D level TOI, which is their prerogative and if I honestly look at the rest of the lineups, I don't blame them for that choice (I do blame them for pushing him beyond the point of diminishing returns, especially in the regular season usage though). Marner was tied to the hip of their top scoring 1C, which again, on paper, because of his skillset, made plenty of sense for many reasons throughout the regular season. Unfortunately, when space got tight against committed defenses, Marner's skillset and defensive-minded conservativism did not help his line break through. Extra unfortunately, he aggressively negotiated a cap hit commensurate with a 1C, for his winger position at a time when the salary cap was most painful for the team, so fan sentiment compounded negatively and his public interactions with the media rarely ever assuaged anybody's perception that he was operating on petty entitlement. There's absolutely a universe in which the Toronto fanbase is unified in eating out of his hand the charming little crumbs of whimsy he brings to the Leafs if he made some different decisions and statements about that first extension, especially after witnessing McDavid get all the love for taking a significant long-term discount to help his team succeed.

Marner and Matthews being tied to the hip regardless of team result sort of sewered both their respective playoff performances. Marner always had the puck and tried to force it to Matthews against very set defensive structures, which led to turnovers or whatever, and that's 23M of the team not scoring when they needed to be scoring 60% of the team offense. Leafs special teams shat the bed every playoffs when they could have tilted a series in the positive direction, and both units were headlined by Marner and Matthews.

Well, at least you finally, openly admit to hating Marner. You used to dance around that.

It's too bad your hatred for Marner and your worship of Nylander so colors your otherwise excellent hockey analysis. That said, it's your prerogative as a fan (that's why it's short for "fanatic") so by all means carry on.

 

[herman]

Well, at least you finally, openly admit to hating Marner. You used to dance around that.

It's too bad your hatred for Marner and your worship of Nylander so colors your otherwise excellent hockey analysis. That said, it's your prerogative as a fan (that's why it's short for "fanatic") so by all means carry on.

Hater is just the generic term I used here for effect because I'm pretty much labeled that anyway, regardless of my wording to add oomph to my assertion that his playoff stats on the whole were fine (as is my love for Nylander by the by, as both of those positions are essentially memes at this point).

I was a big fan of drafting Marner! But I have evolved in how I try to evaluate asset utility and where cap dollars should be allocated to build a sustainable, successful team. I just don't have time for strictly playmaking wingers in the 10+M range; it's very ostentatious in a salary cap environment. Would rather spend that money making a ridiculous two-way defense corps to enable cheap wingers to excel.

I maintain Marner would actually be a tremendously valuable 1RD, akin to Makar and prime-Karlsson. The evasive agility, the vision, and the defensive commitment (along with the underrated shooting ability) probably would put him ahead of those two if he was properly trained earlier on.

Vegas fans are chafing a little bit about how Marner hasn't propelled them to the vaunted heights they're used to, so there's that.

 

[Joe S.]

Vegas fans are chafing a little bit about how Marner hasn't propelled them to the vaunted heights their used to, so there's that.

There's Vegas fans?