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2012 CBA Negotiations Thread

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This could make things fun;

John Shannon ‏@JSportsnet
Part of PA Proposal includes ability to "trade" cap space. Same amount of money/cap remains in system yet can be redistributed or "bought"
 
Sgt said:
This could make things fun;

John Shannon ‏@JSportsnet
Part of PA Proposal includes ability to "trade" cap space. Same amount of money/cap remains in system yet can be redistributed or "bought"

It would, but the league has been dead set against that in the past.
 
bustaheims said:
It would, but the league has been dead set against that in the past.

Sure, but if a deal is ever going to get done the NHL will have to accept that this CBA won't only have changes they want. This is something that wouldn't cost any money and that we know some teams would like. If that's the sort of thing they wouldn't even consider then they might as well cancel the season now.
 
Nik? said:
Erndog said:
Doesn't this seem more of a stop-gap measure than any sort of longer-term solution?  Sort of like, "ok, the last CBA worked out better than we anticipated.  We'll concede to give a little back the next 3 years, but then we're full bore straight ahead again."

That seems what it's intended to be though. I mean, ideally, if you have a good relationship between PA and the League you don't want to sign a 8 or 9 year CBA. You'd prefer a series of shorter ones that would allow for more immediate addressing of issues that pop up. I'm pretty sure Baseball has signed deals like that of late.

Just to play devils advocate here, but I was listening to some lawyer on the radio this morning discussing the CBA and he said that short-term CBA's aren't favourable for anybody.  He said that in order to secure long-term TV deals and procure advertising dollars it's in the best interest of both parties to have a long-term CBA.  He pointed to how the NFL is essentially iron clad and has a 10 year deal with no ability to opt out.  He gave an example how the Green Bay Packers really need a long-term CBA in order to be stable (I can't remember exactly what he said about this).

Anyways, his point was that these short-term CBAs won't fly and aren't in the best interest of either party.  Just thought I'd share with our resident legal expert  :P
 
Erndog said:
Just to play devils advocate here, but I was listening to some lawyer on the radio this morning discussing the CBA and he said that short-term CBA's aren't favourable for anybody.  He said that in order to secure long-term TV deals and procure advertising dollars it's in the best interest of both parties to have a long-term CBA.  He pointed to how the NFL is essentially iron clad and has a 10 year deal with no ability to opt out.  He gave an example how the Green Bay Packers really need a long-term CBA in order to be stable (I can't remember exactly what he said about this).

Anyways, his point was that these short-term CBAs won't fly and aren't in the best interest of either party.  Just thought I'd share with our resident legal expert  :P

I think the primary difference between what I'm saying and the example he's using is the part where I mention the necessity of the good relationship between the PA and the league. In football, which genuinely doesn't have that, I'd agree you'd want something longer term to allay any fears that a five year deal you sign with a sponsor may have only be good for four years due to a lockout or strike, not to mention the resulting fallout or decline in popularity. 

But in Baseball, where the last few CBAs have been signed without any real threat of a work stoppage, they have a relatively short term CBA and they have teams like the Rangers, Padres and Dodgers signing 10 or 20 year TV deals worth billions of dollars.
 
Nik? said:
Erndog said:
Just to play devils advocate here, but I was listening to some lawyer on the radio this morning discussing the CBA and he said that short-term CBA's aren't favourable for anybody.  He said that in order to secure long-term TV deals and procure advertising dollars it's in the best interest of both parties to have a long-term CBA.  He pointed to how the NFL is essentially iron clad and has a 10 year deal with no ability to opt out.  He gave an example how the Green Bay Packers really need a long-term CBA in order to be stable (I can't remember exactly what he said about this).

Anyways, his point was that these short-term CBAs won't fly and aren't in the best interest of either party.  Just thought I'd share with our resident legal expert  :P

I think the primary difference between what I'm saying and the example he's using is the part where I mention the necessity of the good relationship between the PA and the league. In football, which genuinely doesn't have that, I'd agree you'd want something longer term to allay any fears that a five year deal you sign with a sponsor may have only be good for four years due to a lockout or strike, not to mention the resulting fallout or decline in popularity. 

But in Baseball, where the last few CBAs have been signed without any real threat of a work stoppage, they have a relatively short term CBA and they have teams like the Rangers, Padres and Dodgers signing 10 or 20 year TV deals worth billions of dollars.


I know, I agree with you.  It's not black and white like "long-term is good, short-term is bad."  There are a myriad of factors to consider not the least of which being the relationship between the two parties. 

I think in the NHL's case, the league would want a long-term one while we see the players interested in a shorter term one.  Then again, the last CBA was fairly long and we saw a number of problems creep in so it is probably in the best interest of both parties to settle on a transition CBA while they iron out the flaws to a more lengthy one next time around.

I find it interesting and somewhat amusing the NHLPAs proposal made no such mention of the length of player contracts, or age of free agency.  Well, nothing that we've heard of yet.  I do really like the idea of trading cap space. 

 
Some extra details about the NHLPA's proposal courtesy of Larry Brooks twitter account:

-Clubs could go up to $4M over cap and drop to $4M under floor by adding or trading cap space re PA proposal....
-NHLPA has also proposed extra draft picks for teams in financial trouble that could be used, traded or sold, Post has learned...
-PA also has proposed that NHL establish a limit on non-player spending by teams
-NHLPA intends to submit own proposals re systemic issues (e.g, free agency, entry level, salary arb)...
-PA will propose eliminating team walkaways on salary arbitration, Post has learned...
 
CarltonTheBear said:
Some extra details about the NHLPA's proposal courtesy of Larry Brooks twitter account:

-Clubs could go up to $4M over cap and drop to $4M under floor by adding or trading cap space re PA proposal....
-NHLPA has also proposed extra draft picks for teams in financial trouble that could be used, traded or sold, Post has learned...
-PA also has proposed that NHL establish a limit on non-player spending by teams
-NHLPA intends to submit own proposals re systemic issues (e.g, free agency, entry level, salary arb)...
-PA will propose eliminating team walkaways on salary arbitration, Post has learned...

This is absurd
 
CarltonTheBear said:
Some extra details about the NHLPA's proposal courtesy of Larry Brooks twitter account:

-Clubs could go up to $4M over cap and drop to $4M under floor by adding or trading cap space re PA proposal....
-NHLPA has also proposed extra draft picks for teams in financial trouble that could be used, traded or sold, Post has learned...
-PA also has proposed that NHL establish a limit on non-player spending by teams
-NHLPA intends to submit own proposals re systemic issues (e.g, free agency, entry level, salary arb)...
-PA will propose eliminating team walkaways on salary arbitration, Post has learned...

How the heck would that work?
 
Erndog said:
I know, I agree with you.  It's not black and white like "long-term is good, short-term is bad."  There are a myriad of factors to consider not the least of which being the relationship between the two parties. 

I think in the NHL's case, the league would want a long-term one while we see the players interested in a shorter term one.  Then again, the last CBA was fairly long and we saw a number of problems creep in so it is probably in the best interest of both parties to settle on a transition CBA while they iron out the flaws to a more lengthy one next time around.

I find it interesting and somewhat amusing the NHLPAs proposal made no such mention of the length of player contracts, or age of free agency.  Well, nothing that we've heard of yet.  I do really like the idea of trading cap space.

That's sort of what I meant in terms of a philosophical gap between the PA and owners. My guess is that Fehr sees things like a fixed revenue % and hard cap as temporary measures while the league gets their house in order. Once they get things settled I assume they push for a MLB type system.
 
OldTimeHockey said:
CarltonTheBear said:
Some extra details about the NHLPA's proposal courtesy of Larry Brooks twitter account:

-Clubs could go up to $4M over cap and drop to $4M under floor by adding or trading cap space re PA proposal....
-NHLPA has also proposed extra draft picks for teams in financial trouble that could be used, traded or sold, Post has learned...
-PA also has proposed that NHL establish a limit on non-player spending by teams
-NHLPA intends to submit own proposals re systemic issues (e.g, free agency, entry level, salary arb)...
-PA will propose eliminating team walkaways on salary arbitration, Post has learned...

How the heck would that work?

I assume like baseball's sandwich round. The bottom five or ten teams in terms of revenue could get a supplemental pick that they could deal with as they like.
 
Nik? said:
OldTimeHockey said:
CarltonTheBear said:
Some extra details about the NHLPA's proposal courtesy of Larry Brooks twitter account:

-Clubs could go up to $4M over cap and drop to $4M under floor by adding or trading cap space re PA proposal....
-NHLPA has also proposed extra draft picks for teams in financial trouble that could be used, traded or sold, Post has learned...
-PA also has proposed that NHL establish a limit on non-player spending by teams
-NHLPA intends to submit own proposals re systemic issues (e.g, free agency, entry level, salary arb)...
-PA will propose eliminating team walkaways on salary arbitration, Post has learned...

How the heck would that work?

I assume like baseball's sandwich round. The bottom five or ten teams in terms of revenue could get a supplemental pick that they could deal with as they like.

And in baseball, where do those picks sit?
 
Does the potential nixing of the Winter Classic and it's financial windfall for the league put a bit more of a fire under them to get a deal done than last time?  That makes the league a lot of money, no?
 
The NHLPA's proposal isn't really a concession on their part at all, when you really look at it. It's a 3 year period where they step back a little and then, in the 4th year, things go right back to where they are now. It's essentially a modified version of the status quo, with the only real significant change to the way things work being the limited ability to trade cap space. It doesn't really address the biggest issues the league has at all. The limit on front office spending is absurd and taking away teams' ability to walk away from arbitration rulings is on par with the owners asking to do away with arbitration - it's a non-starter.
 
You're right. Looking at it now, it seems they're pretty far apart. Though I still think it was more of a counter-proposal than a counter-punch... I'm not writing off a normal start to the season just yet.
 
bustaheims said:
The NHLPA's proposal isn't really a concession on their part at all, when you really look at it.

That's not really fair. Even if it's just a 400 million concession you're talking about a 600K giveback per player. At 800 million it's 1.2 million per player. That's pretty significant no matter who you are.
 
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