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2012 Hall of Fame Class

Nice to see Sundin get in on the first ballot. I am surprised, actually, given those who were eligible, but I certainly think it was deserved.
 
bustaheims said:
Yeah, though, I guess I see Sundin over Shanny more than the other guys. Shanny was a smaller part of his teams than Mats - especially the national teams he was a part of.
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Here's the way I look at it. Yeah, Shanahan won a couple cups but he did so by being the 4th or 5th best player on those teams. Can you imagine how good the Leafs would have been if Mats Sundin had been the team's 4th best player?
 
I never understood why so many people thought Shanny was a shoe-in amd Sundin wasn't. Like Nik said, he was never even a top-3 player on the teams he was on. He'll get in eventually though of course.

Still no Pat Burns though?
 
Way to go Mats, you deserve it.  He worked hard night in and night out.  What a pleasure to watch this gifted, elite player.
 
Nik? said:
Here's the way I look at it. Yeah, Shanahan won a couple cups but he did so by being the 4th or 5th best player on those teams. Can you imagine how good the Leafs would have been if Mats Sundin had been the team's 4th best player?
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Exactly. And, add to that the fact that he set so many records for Swedish players, was the first non-American to be drafted 1st overall, captained an Olympic gold medal team, etc., and, to me, the choice there is pretty clear. Shanahan has great numbers that are partly enhanced from having played a large portion of his career before the trap and from being a consistent secondary weapon on an excellent Detroit team.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
Like Nik said, he was never even a top-3 player on the teams he was on.
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In fairness he was probably the best player on some Hartford and St. Louis teams that went nowhere.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
I never understood why so many people thought Shanny was a shoe-in amd Sundin wasn't. Like Nik said, he was never even a top-3 player on the teams he was on. He'll get in eventually though of course.

Still no Pat Burns though?
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Well, I think it's kind of ridiculous to equate whether or not someone is or isn't a HOFer based on where they ranked in their team's respective talent pool over the years. I mean, can anyone honestly say Mats would be any less deserving if he were lucky enough to play the likes of Yzerman or Lidstrom? Surely people aren't saying Sundin on a better team makes him lesser of a player? I'm not buying this. I don't know, I'm not drawing the connection here.
 
Hey, long time no post..... just wanted to say a hearty "F-You" to all the clowns over the years that came on here and insisted Mats Sundin was barely a HOF'er, let alone a first ballot one. Congrats to the best Leaf these eyes have ever seen.
 
Sgt said:
Well, I think it's kind of ridiculous to equate whether or not someone is or isn't a HOFer based on where they ranked in their team's respective talent pool over the years. I mean, can anyone honestly say Mats would be any less deserving if he were lucky enough to play the likes of Yzerman or Lidstrom? Surely people aren't saying Sundin on a better team makes him lesser of a player? I'm not buying this. I don't know, I'm not drawing the connection here.
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It's about removing a player from the context of his team. The argument is that Mats Sundin would have been a HOF'er regardless of where he played and he shouldn't be ranked behind guys on the basis of those guys having achievements on their resume that reflect their team's overall skill level as opposed to their own.
 
Odd, in a game where the entire point is to score goals, Shanahan has more of them then any other player going in to the HOF this year. I'm rather blown away by this.
 
Sgt said:
Well, I think it's kind of ridiculous to equate whether or not someone is or isn't a HOFer based on where they ranked in their team's respective talent pool over the years. I mean, can anyone honestly say Mats would be any less deserving if he were lucky enough to play the likes of Yzerman or Lidstrom? Surely people aren't saying Sundin on a better team makes him lesser of a player? I'm not buying this. I don't know, I'm not drawing the connection here.
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Not at all. It's more about putting their statistical accomplishment in context. Shanahan put up great numbers, but never as the go to guy. Flip their teams, and Shanahan's numbers likely aren't as good and Sundin's are likely significantly better. Seriously, can you imagine the kind of numbers Mats would have put up being able to play with guys like Yzerman and Federov (even though they were all centres) or with guys like Robitaille (briefly), Zetterberg or Hull on his wing over the course of his career? Or how Shanahan's numbers would have been negatively impacted by not having that level of talent to support him?
 
Sgt said:
Odd, in a game where the entire point is to score goals, Shanahan has more of them then any other player going in to the HOF this year. I'm rather blown away by this.
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In total, sure, but in goals per game:

Shanahan: 0.43
Sundin: 0.42
Bure: 0.62

And, Oates is one of the premier set up guys of all time.

Shanny will get in, but, the only guy I'd clearly take him over is Bure, and, really, that's only because Bure's career was cut short.
 
Although, if I am going to complain...

At their peaks is there anyone who would have taken Bure over Lindros? Both guys had injury shortened careers, one guy has a Hart trophy.

Expressed as per 82 game averages their career numbers are

Bure:  51 g 40 a 91 p
Lindros: 40 g 53 a 93 p

And, you know, maybe a bit of an edge to Lindros in the physicality department.
 
bustaheims said:
Not at all. It's more about putting their statistical accomplishment in context. Shanahan put up great numbers, but never as the go to guy. Flip their teams, and Shanahan's numbers likely aren't as good and Sundin's are likely significantly better. Seriously, can you imagine the kind of numbers Mats would have put up being able to play with guys like Yzerman and Federov (even though they were all centres) or with guys like Robitaille (briefly), Zetterberg or Hull on his wing over the course of his career? Or how Shanahan's numbers would have been negatively impacted by not having that level of talent to support him?
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Okay, though I don't think we can dismiss Shanahan's contributions to his team. I don't care where he ranked on those teams as they wouldn't have enjoyed the same success without him. I don't think he's any less deserving than Mats (err HOFer Mats  :).) In fact, I'd say outside of Sakic, he might be tied with Mats for the most deserving of all based on merit, accomplishments, and everything else that typically gets one in.   
 
Nik? said:
Although, if I am going to complain...

At their peaks is there anyone who would have taken Bure over Lindros? Both guys had injury shortened careers, one guy has a Hart trophy.

Expressed as per 82 game averages their career numbers are

Bure:  51 g 40 a 91 p
Lindros: 40 g 53 a 93 p

And, you know, maybe a bit of an edge to Lindros in the physicality department.
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I almost certainly go with Lindros. My guess is his snub so far has a little more to do with some off ice issues rather than his on ice play.
 
bustaheims said:
Sgt said:
Odd, in a game where the entire point is to score goals, Shanahan has more of them then any other player going in to the HOF this year. I'm rather blown away by this.
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In total, sure, but in goals per game:

Shanahan: 0.43
Sundin: 0.42
Bure: 0.62

And, Oates is one of the premier set up guys of all time.

Shanny will get in, but, the only guy I'd clearly take him over is Bure, and, really, that's only because Bure's career was cut short.
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Well, exactly. If you can't frame things in their proper context you'll come to all sorts of ridiculous conclusions. Mike Gartner scored more goals than Mario Lemieux.
 
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