2013-2014 NHL Thread

[OldTimeHockey]

The fact that they're still contending for a playoff spot despite all these issues this year and in the past couple, should be a recognition of Holland's job as a GM in my books.

Maybe, but I think it's important to say that Holland was probably always a little overrated and given credit for things that, while they certainly went into what produced a championship contender, can't credibly have been attributed to him and any particular genius of his. I know people think of the Datsyuk and Zetterberg picks as being works of genius but the reality there is that for Holland to take guys where he took them means, at best, that he thought they were worth taking a flyer on. Not that he saw something that other people didn't.

It's pretty hard to prove a GM as being underrated or overrated.

I'm not even directly pointing my finger at Datsyuk and Zetterberg. I just think that a GM that can keep his team highly competitive for this long shouldn't be hung out to dry when the inevitable happens and the team returns to mediocrity.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

They're going to have an issue with Datsyuk/Zetterberg getting older.  Of the past 13 NHL drafts, the Wings have only had a first round pick 5 times, and only Brendan Smith and Jakub Kindl have seen any PP time.

They hit two homeruns with Datsyuk/Zetterberg, and Howard looks to be a very good pick, but I'm not sure where their next wave is going to come from.  Datsyuk will turn 36 this year and Zetterberg will turn 34.

But maybe that's okay with them for a few years.

Oh I agree...But taking away from a GM's 'shine' because his team has been so good for so long that they haven't had high draft picks is a tad shortsighted no?

And if giving up 8 of those 13(late round) draft picks resulted in 22 straight playoff series, drafting be damned, he's still done his job admirably.(Yes I know that Holland is only in his 17th year as GM. He was assistant GM prior to that).

I get that we can look at him this year and scratch our heads at the moves he made, but I don't think it takes away from any of his and his team's accomplishments starting in the mid 90's.

Like I said, a drop off in production is expected when you've been good for that long.

I don't really think trading those picks helped result much in 22 straight playoffs really.  I'm not disagreeing or trying to disparage him for the success he's had.  I just mean in terms of the last handful of seasons has he done a good job of preparing Detroit for the Datsyuk/Zetterberg-less future?  I think a lot of the moves seem suspect.  And again, maybe that's something they're consciously aware of and okay with having some down seasons/high picks.

I think they have to be consciously aware of the 'down time' because I think it is/was inevitable. Like I said, it's tough to prepare for a Datsyuk/Zetterberg-less future when you're so good that restocking the cupboard is tough.

You have 2 of the best in the league. You want to surround them, and keep them surrounded with people that can win now. I get that you want to have a back up wave of talent, but the Red Wings aren't exactly hurting in that department. They have some good talent in the 'wings'.

 

[Kin]

It's pretty hard to prove a GM as being underrated or overrated.

In most cases I agree but in the case of Holland it's really just a bit of a refutation of some of the sillier accolades he's received over the years. He's good at what he does and he's built a talented staff around him but listening to some corners over the year you'd think the guy was drafting all-stars with his eyes closed.

I'm not even directly pointing my finger at Datsyuk and Zetterberg. I just think that a GM that can keep his team highly competitive for this long shouldn't be hung out to dry when the inevitable happens and the team returns to mediocrity.

But I don't think anyone's hanging him out to dry, just pointing out that, as I say, there are some visible dents in his armor. I mean, talking about "keeping his team competitive" for this long sort of speaks to what I mean. He came into a very good situation with some very good pieces already in place, did incredibly well/got a little lucky with his first couple of drafts and the reality is that right up until Lidstrom left, those two things had a ton to do with all of "his" success over the last 20 years.

I mean, just hypothetically, how bad is a team going to be provided they're run with a little baseline competence and, say, Sidney Crosby? Pretty decent, right?

 

[Jalili]

I know one of the main complaints against Holland/Babocky is their undying affection for useless, past their prime vets like Cleary, Samuelsson, etc at the expense of young players like Nyquist and Tatar.

Another thing is that Detroit's record for drafting North Americans is actually pretty sub-par; the organization's drafting strength is solely in their ability to find and develop Euros.

In fact they were really starting to dry up for a while, but we're seeing something of a small resurgence in the quality of their prospect pool with guys like Jurco, Sproul, Mantha, Ouellet, etc.

But I think the trouble with Detroit is that it's just one of those things where inevitably, you leave the same people in charge for too long and they get complacent and get stuck in the same old habits.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I know one of the main complaints against Holland/Babocky is their undying affection for useless, past their prime vets like Cleary, Samuelsson, etc at the expense of young players like Nyquist and Tatar.

Another thing is that Detroit's record for drafting North Americans is actually pretty sub-par; the organization's drafting strength is solely in their ability to find and develop Euros.

In fact they were really starting to dry up for a while, but we're seeing something of a small resurgence in the quality of their prospect pool with guys like Jurco, Sproul, Mantha, Ouellet, etc.

But I think the trouble with Detroit is that it's just one of those things where inevitably, you leave the same people in charge for too long and they get complacent and get stuck in the same old habits.

I'll agree that they sometimes appear loyal to a flaw.

My main opinion is that as much as current accomplishments remove the shine of past accomplishments, I don't believe they should. It's a case of "what have you done for me lately" and yes it's human nature to lean that way and it's unavoidable I guess.

And yes Nik you are correct that the past accomplishments of Holland partially rely on the previous management and some lucky draft picks, but any successful team's story has incidents of luck associated.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

They're going to have an issue with Datsyuk/Zetterberg getting older.  Of the past 13 NHL drafts, the Wings have only had a first round pick 5 times, and only Brendan Smith and Jakub Kindl have seen any PP time.

They hit two homeruns with Datsyuk/Zetterberg, and Howard looks to be a very good pick, but I'm not sure where their next wave is going to come from.  Datsyuk will turn 36 this year and Zetterberg will turn 34.

But maybe that's okay with them for a few years.

Oh I agree...But taking away from a GM's 'shine' because his team has been so good for so long that they haven't had high draft picks is a tad shortsighted no?

And if giving up 8 of those 13(late round) draft picks resulted in 22 straight playoff series, drafting be damned, he's still done his job admirably.(Yes I know that Holland is only in his 17th year as GM. He was assistant GM prior to that).

I get that we can look at him this year and scratch our heads at the moves he made, but I don't think it takes away from any of his and his team's accomplishments starting in the mid 90's.

Like I said, a drop off in production is expected when you've been good for that long.

I don't really think trading those picks helped result much in 22 straight playoffs really.  I'm not disagreeing or trying to disparage him for the success he's had.  I just mean in terms of the last handful of seasons has he done a good job of preparing Detroit for the Datsyuk/Zetterberg-less future?  I think a lot of the moves seem suspect.  And again, maybe that's something they're consciously aware of and okay with having some down seasons/high picks.

I think they have to be consciously aware of the 'down time' because I think it is/was inevitable. Like I said, it's tough to prepare for a Datsyuk/Zetterberg-less future when you're so good that restocking the cupboard is tough.

You have 2 of the best in the league. You want to surround them, and keep them surrounded with people that can win now. I get that you want to have a back up wave of talent, but the Red Wings aren't exactly hurting in that department. They have some good talent in the 'wings'.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is...take away the blind luck of finding two of this generation's greatest talents in the 7th/8th rounds back-to-back seasons.  I know it's hard to really do because moves are made or not made in the context of those two being there, but other than drafting those two, and having Lidstrom still play at an elite level forever, what moves has Holland made that scream great GM to you?

There are some very good picks and signings - Howard, Ericsson, Dekeyser, etc.

 

[L K]

Eventually every GM is going to fall off.  You can't stay at the top of the game forever in professional sports.  Hell, look at Lou Lam in NJ.  At points he was considered a god among GMs and look at the Devils over the past few years.

 

[Madferret]

For obvious reasons I'd love nothing more than the Wings missing the playoffs and the Sens making it. Hockey God justice. Holland is a home-wrecker.

 

[L K]

Either that, or something changes drastically in the playoff status and we somehow had a Montreal-Toronto series AND a Detroit-Ottawa series in round 1.  That would be fun.

 

[ZBBM]

Two points:

It's impossible to overrate a GM who's made the playoffs 22 years in a row. That puts him on top 5 all time   

There is no such thing as luck in drafting.

 

[Frank E]

Two points:

It's impossible to overrate a GM who's made the playoffs 22 years in a row. That puts him on top 5 all time   

There is no such thing as luck in drafting.

You think Detroit knew how good Zetterberg was going to be when they waited until the 7th round to draft him?

 

[ZBBM]

Of course not. And that's the point. No one knows how good any particular pick is going to be. If you can't distinguish between luck and skill in predicting that outcome then it makes more sense to attribute any actual outcome to skill rather than luck.

Unless you want to attribute everything to luck. In which case you can save lots of money on scouts.

 

[Madferret]

Either that, or something changes drastically in the playoff status and we somehow had a Montreal-Toronto series AND a Detroit-Ottawa series in round 1.  That would be fun.

or Sens / Leafs re-loaded

 

[hap_leaf]

Of course not. And that's the point. No one knows how good any particular pick is going to be. If you can't distinguish between luck and skill in predicting that outcome then it makes more sense to attribute any actual outcome to skill rather than luck.

Unless you want to attribute everything to luck. In which case you can save lots of money on scouts.

I would say...

Rounds 1-3 Skill
Rounds 4 + Luck

If you had your eye on any player and decided to wait until the 4th round or later, you're lucky he was still there.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Martin St. Louis has 4 goals today not even halfway through the 2nd period.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Two points:

It's impossible to overrate a GM who's made the playoffs 22 years in a row. That puts him on top 5 all time   

There is no such thing as luck in drafting.

Just for the record, Holland hasn't been the GM for 22 years.

And no one is trying to bring down their past success.  It doesn't make him immune from criticism if it is warranted.

 

[L K]

Martin St. Louis has 4 goals today not even halfway through the 2nd period.

Did he offend the crowd after he did it? 

 

[mc]

Edmonton is probably going to get the next two #1 overalls.

I'll be furious if they get McDavid.

I'm sorry, if this happens the lottery system needs serious reconsideration. The fans suffer for 7 years plus while the team bottoms out...fans fill the seats, owners keep making seat and tv money while the innate management cries and whines to media about bettering team.

 

[drummond]

Martin St. Louis has 4 goals today not even halfway through the 2nd period.

Pavelski answered with a hattrick within 6 and half minutes, 5-4 San Jose after 2, pretty wild game

 

[L K]

Paul Maurice - 3 wins in a row to start his career off as coach of the Winnipeg Jets