2015 NHL Entry Draft

[hobarth]

I find it odd that TO fans are looking for high scoring wingers when defense and center are and have been for years, the major weakness of this team. I keep seeing Strome or Marner like Hannafin has suddenly lost his status as the BPA after Eichel and McDavid. At 6'3" with speed, IQ and basically no weaknesses, TO has an opportunity to draft a Jones or an Ekblad and he appears NHL ready like they were.

I'm going to be very disappointed if TO doesn't draft the BPA and if Hannafin is available then I think that would be the case. 

 

[Kin]

I find it odd that TO fans are looking for high scoring wingers when defense and center are and have been for years, the major weakness of this team. I keep seeing Strome or Marner like Hannafin has suddenly lost his status as the BPA after Eichel and McDavid. At 6'3" with speed, IQ and basically no weaknesses, TO has an opportunity to draft a Jones or an Ekblad and he appears NHL ready like they were.

I'm going to be very disappointed if TO doesn't draft the BPA and if Hannafin is available then I think that would be the case.

Well, to start with, Strome is a C, not a winger. Marner there's debate about but some people believe he can play down the middle too. There is no consensus on who the BPA is at #3 and that's why there's the discussion there is.

But mainly it seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it here. On the one hand you're talking about how Leafs fans should focus on positional needs, on the other they should only take the BPA. Some people think the BPA is Marner, some think Strome, some think Hanifin. Given that any one of those three might get taken by the Coyotes, the Leafs and any fans who want to have a serious discussion about the draft need to be talking about all of them.

 

[Highlander]

Dubas and Hunter have said it over and over like a zen mantra: We will pick the most talented player (in their eyes) available over positional considerations, pure talent first, pure talent first, pure talent first. Hey the mantra works pretty good.

 

[hobarth]

Dubas and Hunter have said it over and over like a zen mantra: We will pick the most talented player (in their eyes) available over positional considerations, pure talent first, pure talent first, pure talent first. Hey the mantra works pretty good.

So the question remains on what info will Hunter base his decisions, he wasn't a person evaluating talent for an NHL team until 2 months ago in fact before then he was scouting only for his OHL team so since he's been with TO the players he's maybe going to draft haven't been playing.

I don't think there's any doubt Hunter has proven himself as a talent evaluator for the OHL but what really does he know about the WHL. the QHL. collage, Europe. etc. On what basis is he judging, is he the proper person to have the ultimate say on who TO drafts?

Perhaps in the future he will be an excellent GM but right now I have my doubts, no GM, somehow Shany has anointed himself the GM based on what and 1/2 of his immediate support group has little practical value so I think we are in for a very wild ride with little chance for success.

Our sources of talent evaluation comes from questionable sources so the passion people express in their discussions is more need based than than of any value in any kind of factual realm. TO has needs at every position so we all hope TO will pick the BPA, the consensus is that's Hanifin. 

 

[herman]

So the question remains on what info will Hunter base his decisions, he wasn't a person evaluating talent for an NHL team until 2 months ago in fact before then he was scouting only for his OHL team so since he's been with TO the players he's maybe going to draft haven't been playing.

I don't think there's any doubt Hunter has proven himself as a talent evaluator for the OHL but what really does he know about the WHL. the QHL. collage, Europe. etc. On what basis is he judging, is he the proper person to have the ultimate say on who TO drafts?

Perhaps in the future he will be an excellent GM but right now I have my doubts, no GM, somehow Shany has anointed himself the GM based on what and 1/2 of his immediate support group has little practical value so I think we are in for a very wild ride with little chance for success.

Our sources of talent evaluation comes from questionable sources so the passion people express in their discussions is more need based than than of any value in any kind of factual realm. TO has needs at every position so we all hope TO will pick the BPA, the consensus is that's Hanifin.

I guess I'll mark you down for #TeamHanafin.

With regards to the rest of your GM concerns, I wouldn't sell Mark Hunter short just yet; his experience, qualifications, and track record still greatly outstrip ours, so we're really in no position to judge him or Shanahan & Co. At most we can either agree or disagree with their decisions based on our own preferences/research.

 

[Highlander]

Hobart, I find that post a little on the negative side. There is much reason for optimism in Loaf land.  A new President or relatively knew and a team of experts from top down. Babcock as coach, new Marlies coach, soon to be a new Solar Bears coach all in lockstep with the plan.
Mark Hunter is widely regarded as one of the brightest hockey minds in the world. Dubas is no slouch either. According to reports no one works harder than these two. 
Brighten up and get ready for the wild ride, but it promises to end up in some good place.

 

[Bullfrog]

So the question remains on what info will Hunter base his decisions, he wasn't a person evaluating talent for an NHL team until 2 months ago in fact before then he was scouting only for his OHL team so since he's been with TO the players he's maybe going to draft haven't been playing.

I don't think there's any doubt Hunter has proven himself as a talent evaluator for the OHL but what really does he know about the WHL. the QHL. collage, Europe. etc. On what basis is he judging, is he the proper person to have the ultimate say on who TO drafts?

Perhaps in the future he will be an excellent GM but right now I have my doubts, no GM, somehow Shany has anointed himself the GM based on what and 1/2 of his immediate support group has little practical value so I think we are in for a very wild ride with little chance for success.

Our sources of talent evaluation comes from questionable sources so the passion people express in their discussions is more need based than than of any value in any kind of factual realm. TO has needs at every position so we all hope TO will pick the BPA, the consensus is that's Hanifin.

Well, he's got a team working under him to assist with these matters. It seems it's not necessarily his knowledge of all the players that's been lauded, but rather his ability to evaluate them and predict future success.

Picking 4th and getting either Hanifin, Strome, Marner, Provorov, etc. isn't putting them in a position of very little success. I could make the 4th round pick and have a high probability of success. Obviously it comes more into play in the later rounds.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

So the question remains on what info will Hunter base his decisions, he wasn't a person evaluating talent for an NHL team until 2 months ago in fact before then he was scouting only for his OHL team so since he's been with TO the players he's maybe going to draft haven't been playing.

Just wanted to correct something he's been with the Leafs since October so he'll have been scouting players all season long.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Dubas and Hunter have said it over and over like a zen mantra: We will pick the most talented player (in their eyes) available over positional considerations, pure talent first, pure talent first, pure talent first. Hey the mantra works pretty good.

So the question remains on what info will Hunter base his decisions, he wasn't a person evaluating talent for an NHL team until 2 months ago in fact before then he was scouting only for his OHL team so since he's been with TO the players he's maybe going to draft haven't been playing.

I don't think there's any doubt Hunter has proven himself as a talent evaluator for the OHL but what really does he know about the WHL. the QHL. collage, Europe. etc. On what basis is he judging, is he the proper person to have the ultimate say on who TO drafts?

Perhaps in the future he will be an excellent GM but right now I have my doubts, no GM, somehow Shany has anointed himself the GM based on what and 1/2 of his immediate support group has little practical value so I think we are in for a very wild ride with little chance for success.

Our sources of talent evaluation comes from questionable sources so the passion people express in their discussions is more need based than than of any value in any kind of factual realm. TO has needs at every position so we all hope TO will pick the BPA, the consensus is that's Hanifin.

If Hunter doesn't have enough qualifications for you to think he can make a judgment on these players, how can you?

I mean that only half-seriously.

Talk to scouts around the league and the book on Hunter is clear: He prides himself on seeing more games than the competition.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/05/09/mark-hunter-takes-in-game-2-of-ohl-final-ahead-of-special-leafs-draft

?If I were in ownership and I needed somebody for my evaluation of talent, he?s one of the best,? said player agent Don Meehan. ?When you?re talking about a cap system, you can?t afford to make mistakes.?

...

While Mike Babcock said Hunter played a part in convincing him that the Leafs were in good hands ? ?I can talk to that guy. He?s a hockey man,? he said on Thursday ? the question is whether the Leafs need someone with more experience.

?He?s far from a rookie,? said Bassin. ?He played with a lot of guys who are in the executive position now. He coached in the American League. He created London as a destination for junior players. He also created a relationship with agents. You can?t forget that.?

?What I always value on my side of the fence is his judgement,? Meehan said of Hunter. ?He?s played the game, he?s been in the NHL. Over the years, he?s been very perceptive in who can play and who can?t play.?

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs-gm-candidate-mark-hunter-short-on-pro-experience-but-hes-far-from-a-rookie

In reality you're over-stating the differences in scouting players for a junior team and scouting them for an NHL draft.  It's the same basic principles - you're looking for the players who you think will most help your team, you're trying to project where they will be in a few years, etc.  There are still scouts and scouting work that was done before he arrived, and no GM anywhere is doing all the European scouting anyway (Leafs have Thommie Bergman for that).

 

[Kin]

Seriously, is there a fundamental difference between playing hockey in the WHL and OHL?

No GM is going to get hired with a ton of first hand experience in every form of junior hockey.

 

[herman]

I'm going to reiterate a thought that developed last week as to why I'm optimistic about Shanahan and Co. running things.

He's loaded the brain trust with two (and maybe soon to be three) of the top hockey minds from topflight feeder leagues into an NHL situation that is being rebuilt from nearly the ground up. This is situation that will allow Hunter, Dubas, and maybe McCrimmon to establish a system of resource management that flourishes in the Cap era of the NHL.

These guys are some of the best at identifying talent/skill, taking advantage of market inefficiencies, and developing players to their fullest potential all with the ceiling of the AHL/NHL looming over them.

We need to do the same thing in the NHL. Maximize our controllable assets (and get boatloads of them, and pick the best ones when you get to draft), and once the window of cost control is about to close, you move those players at their peak-value for more picks, more prospects with projected growth. Never fall in love with a player or hand out mega NMC contracts unless the player is The Next One and has proven it. Once a player begins to be overtaken by a cheaper and younger internal asset, that older one is moved for more picks/prospects.

 

[Frank E]

I'm going to reiterate a thought that developed last week as to why I'm optimistic about Shanahan and Co. running things.

He's loaded the brain trust with two (and maybe soon to be three) of the top hockey minds from topflight feeder leagues into an NHL situation that is being rebuilt from nearly the ground up. This is situation that will allow Hunter, Dubas, and maybe McCrimmon to establish a system of resource management that flourishes in the Cap era of the NHL.

These guys are some of the best at identifying talent/skill, taking advantage of market inefficiencies, and developing players to their fullest potential all with the ceiling of the AHL/NHL looming over them.

We need to do the same thing in the NHL. Maximize our controllable assets (and get boatloads of them, and pick the best ones when you get to draft), and once the window of cost control is about to close, you move those players at their peak-value for more picks, more prospects with projected growth. Never fall in love with a player or hand out mega NMC contracts unless the player is The Next One and has proven it. Once a player begins to be overtaken by a cheaper and younger internal asset, that older one is moved for more picks/prospects.

I was trying to say the same thing a couple of weeks ago when I argued that no matter where you are in the standings, you need that high-end talent coming through the system.

Whether or not you actually put that player on your roster, or trade him for future or current more pressing needs, you need them in the system.  I think a 21-22 year old player that's playing and showing a high ceiling is the most valuable asset a team can have, no matter what you want to do with them.   

 

[Kin]

I was trying to say the same thing a couple of weeks ago when I argued that no matter where you are in the standings, you need that high-end talent coming through the system.

Whether or not you actually put that player on your roster, or trade him for future or current more pressing needs, you need them in the system.  I think a 21-22 year old player that's playing and showing a high ceiling is the most valuable asset a team can have, no matter what you want to do with them. 

Yes. It was an excellent counterpoint to everyone saying that the most valuable thing a team could have was old and bad players.

 

[Frank E]

I was trying to say the same thing a couple of weeks ago when I argued that no matter where you are in the standings, you need that high-end talent coming through the system.

Whether or not you actually put that player on your roster, or trade him for future or current more pressing needs, you need them in the system.  I think a 21-22 year old player that's playing and showing a high ceiling is the most valuable asset a team can have, no matter what you want to do with them. 

Yes. It was an excellent counterpoint to everyone saying that the most valuable thing a team could have was old and bad players.

Well, not to dwell on it, but I was arguing that it was as valuable to Chicago as it is to the Leafs...you argued that the value was less so for top teams with an established elite.

 

[Kin]

Well, not to dwell on it, but I was arguing that it was as valuable to Chicago as it is to the Leafs...you argued that the value was less so for top teams with an established elite.

Yes. But only because I stubbornly think value is tied to supply and demand.

 

[hobarth]

I can remember when BB went on a hiring streak, it was widely thought that he surrounded himself with the best and the brightest yet TO continued it's traction so we are being sold another load of ..... which so far hasn't done anything to improve the on ice results. What's really galling is that Shany has informed us we are in for a world of hurt before there will be,  any glimmer of hope which is simply buying himself time, I would prefer to think the team is looking to augment not tear down with some vague notion that total reconstruction will result in something better. Scorched earth may eventually result in a better team  but how long will that take, TO is going to have to go significantly backwards before we can expect to see any glimmer of hope. If TO trades Kessel and Phanny we're not going to recieve equal value, simply removing them isn't a solution, TO is bad with them but laying all the blame on them for TO's failings is simply unrealistic. Making proper draft selections as a partial means to improve this team is the best way.

Even without a top quality center TO has been able to score, TO is normally in the top 10 in goals for so offense hasn't been an issue, defense is TO's issue as it is for all poor teams, bad defensive teams aren't successful no matter how prolific the offense. The sexy choice is Marner or Strome because of the goals and assists they can accumulate but the glue to success is the d-men. TO doesn't have the right defensive mix to support it's offense and if that kind of player is available then he needs to be scooped now, our defense is not currently able to support Kessel in the offensive zone so his and the entire team's possession stats are horrible and that will continue so long as the defense remains as poor as  it is.

Great teams can be built without big or flashy centers so long as the defense is superior like NJ in the past, even great teams now have strong defenses with excellent forwards but no team without a superior defense can ever expect to be dominant. I would also take Eichel or McDavid 1/2 in the draft but as we can see in Edmonton accumulating superior forwards is not the way to build a winning atmosphere, build from the back up especially when a truly superior player like Hanifin is available, he will play maybe 30 minutes a game, 30 superior minutes which is always more valuable than the 20 minutes per game any forward can give you.

Many seem to think score and yee shall win but we all know that's not true, it's time someone who manages the Leafs finally realizes that defense is the bedrock of success, if Hanifin is available then TO has to take him, all other choices are simply window dressing.   

 

[L K]

Even without a top quality center TO has been able to score, TO is normally in the top 10 in goals for so offense hasn't been an issue, defense is TO's issue as it is for all poor teams, bad defensive teams aren't successful no matter how prolific the offense. The sexy choice is Marner or Strome because of the goals and assists they can accumulate but the glue to success is the d-men. TO doesn't have the right defensive mix to support it's offense and if that kind of player is available then he needs to be scooped now, our defense is not currently able to support Kessel in the offensive zone so his and the entire team's possession stats are horrible and that will continue so long as the defense remains as poor as  it is.

I'm not sure why you are hung up on this concept.  The current Leafs are completely irrelevant to what the Leafs will do in the future. Also, the only year the Leafs finished better than 10th since the first lockout was in the lockout shortened season where they didn't get a chance to have their offense fall off the map in the last 20-30 games.

12th, 9th, 13th, 11th, 26th, 23rd, 10th, 6th, 14th, 24th

Also, implying that Marner or Strome are just a sexy choice really shows that you haven't watched their games at all.

 

[Kin]

Great teams can be built without big or flashy centers so long as the defense is superior like NJ in the past, even great teams now have strong defenses with excellent forwards but no team without a superior defense can ever expect to be dominant.

But there are exceptions to everything. I agree a good defense is pretty key but Pittsburgh won their cup coming at 17th in the league in GAA. Carolina won theirs with a pretty mediocre collection of defensemen and were 20th in GAA. Overwhelmingly having excellent centers is as strong a commonality among cup winners as any you'll find.

Many seem to think score and yee shall win but we all know that's not true, it's time someone who manages the Leafs finally realizes that defense is the bedrock of success, if Hanifin is available then TO has to take him, all other choices are simply window dressing. 

Ok. But what if he's not available? What if Arizona takes him? Talking about Marner and Strome is predicated on the very real possibility that those will be the two players that the Leafs will choose from.

Regardless though. You don't draft for positional need when you're starting a rebuild. The Leafs are in it for the long haul. They shouldn't neglect the defense but taking a defenseman with the #4 pick isn't a necessity at all. There will be good defensive prospects available at #24 too.

 

[hobarth]

Even without a top quality center TO has been able to score, TO is normally in the top 10 in goals for so offense hasn't been an issue, defense is TO's issue as it is for all poor teams, bad defensive teams aren't successful no matter how prolific the offense. The sexy choice is Marner or Strome because of the goals and assists they can accumulate but the glue to success is the d-men. TO doesn't have the right defensive mix to support it's offense and if that kind of player is available then he needs to be scooped now, our defense is not currently able to support Kessel in the offensive zone so his and the entire team's possession stats are horrible and that will continue so long as the defense remains as poor as  it is.

I'm not sure why you are hung up on this concept.  The current Leafs are completely irrelevant to what the Leafs will do in the future. Also, the only year the Leafs finished better than 10th since the first lockout was in the lockout shortened season where they didn't get a chance to have their offense fall off the map in the last 20-30 games.

12th, 9th, 13th, 11th, 26th, 23rd, 10th, 6th, 14th, 24th

Also, implying that Marner or Strome are just a sexy choice really shows that you haven't watched their games at all.

So you totally attribute TO's inability to successfully finish a season on it's inability to continue to score, I haven't watched many of Strome's, Marner's or Hanifin's games but I have watched just about every Leaf game for the last 20 years. TO's better teams had better defenses, it is a team's ability to intelligently defend that enables the Gilmores, the Sundins, etc. to provide enough offense to make TO a winning team, without the defense the offense is wasted like Kessel's ability to reach the top 10 in scoring while TO continues to flounder.

It's always inadviseable to not study history to understand how the future will unfold, better teams result from solid defense, TO needs to put together a team that has a reasonable chance of succeeding and any and all success will stem from solid defense.

You seem to think that if Strome or Marner becomes Leafs their offense will ensure TO's future because of their junior success and that might be true in the right circumstances but it is only possible if TO has laid the right foundation for them and the team to thrive, that's the defense.

Many have lamented the Kessel trade because TO lost the opportunity to draft Seguin, I think the lost opportunity to nab Hamilton is/was what slowed TO's opportunity to succeed. Seguin on Dallas and the resulting awesome offense they have hasn't resulted in success, same for Colorado with all their great offensive weapons, they like Edmonton haven't created the proper environment that allows their offense to push them into the upper echelon of the NHL, TO can be like these losers and continuously draft high scoring forwards with the vague hope that some how the result is success but we all should know we need a #1 d-man as a foundation for the future, we don't have that now and if Hanifin is passed TO needs to grab him now.

Goals and assists are sexy but defense is the foundation of a winner.

 

[Kin]

Many have lamented the Kessel trade because TO lost the opportunity to draft Seguin, I think the lost opportunity to nab Hamilton is/was what slowed TO's opportunity to succeed.

Seems to me that a reasonable view might be that both hurt.

Seguin on Dallas and the resulting awesome offense they have hasn't resulted in success, same for Colorado with all their great offensive weapons, they like Edmonton haven't created the proper environment that allows their offense to push them into the upper echelon of the NHL,

Leaving aside that you're misrepresenting Edmonton a little there(they finished 26th and 25th in the league the last two years in goals per game) I could just as easily point to Nashville as being a team who's built a really great defense around top defensive stars but who've been unable to compete with the teams that are deeper down the middle than they are.

I don't know why you're pushing this dichotomy where you either have to believe either offense or defense is important. They both are.