2016 ALCS - Toronto Blue Jays vs Cleveland Indians

[Arn]

Surely Gibbons position has to be in danger also?

Shapiro has already stated that Gibbons is back for 2017.

And honestly, I am not the biggest fan of Gibbons but the team made the ALCS two years in a row. You can't go ahead and fire him now.

It's a tricky one, but I guess your decision there is can Gibbons take them that next step or do you need a manager who can get the team playing more small ball than these guys have ever shown in games like this when they need to grind it out?

 

[TimKerr]

Surely Gibbons position has to be in danger also?

Shapiro has already stated that Gibbons is back for 2017.

And honestly, I am not the biggest fan of Gibbons but the team made the ALCS two years in a row. You can't go ahead and fire him now.

It's a tricky one, but I guess your decision there is can Gibbons take them that next step or do you need a manager who can get the team playing more small ball than these guys have ever shown in games like this when they need to grind it out?

I think the small ball comments are overblown. In this series, Cleveland who is know for small ball hit more homers than we did. I think it is more a case of timely hitting than small ball. Bunting didn't win the series for Cleveland.

 

[TBLeafer]

Wishlist for next season: They're really easy and could go a long way
Keep Navarro for Estrada + one other pitcher's starts to lighten Martin's load
Keep Encarnacion, let Bautista chase the money
Sign an OF that can spray hit without ego (Ichiro Suzuki style) to lead off while Pompey/Carrera/Upton Jr split the other side
Teach Pillar/Pompey how to make contact/take a walk
Keep Devon Travis away from Joffrey Lupul
Keep doing whatever Atkins/Shapiro have been doing to bolster the bullpen and rotation
Get another hitting coach that can teach them to hit to the opposite field

I'd also add - learn to play small ball/scratch out runs, especially at the bottom of the lineup. It's not something they need as a primary weapon, but, it can definitely make the difference in tight ball games. It'll also change the way that other teams approach them in terms of defence and pitching strategy, which has potential to help in other ways.

Travis helps with that.  He was missed without question this series.  We need one more like him in place of Bautista who we let walk.  His bat is broken, his fielding lacklustre. 

 

[herman]

Wishlist for next season: They're really easy and could go a long way
Keep Navarro for Estrada + one other pitcher's starts to lighten Martin's load
Keep Encarnacion, let Bautista chase the money
Sign an OF that can spray hit without ego (Ichiro Suzuki style) to lead off while Pompey/Carrera/Upton Jr split the other side
Teach Pillar/Pompey how to make contact/take a walk
Keep Devon Travis away from Joffrey Lupul
Keep doing whatever Atkins/Shapiro have been doing to bolster the bullpen and rotation
Get another hitting coach that can teach them to hit to the opposite field

I'd also add - learn to play small ball/scratch out runs, especially at the bottom of the lineup. It's not something they need as a primary weapon, but, it can definitely make the difference in tight ball games. It'll also change the way that other teams approach them in terms of defence and pitching strategy, which has potential to help in other ways.

Those highlighted wishes were all small ball directed

Speed kills. Runners on base adds pressure on the defense and pressure leads to mistakes.

Fly balls take one play to make an out. Balls in the grass take three. Hit to the other side of a shift once in awhile. Especially if you only have warning track power away from the Dome (Pillar), why are you looking to hack every at bat? Use the regular season to hone hitting to the opposite field, rather than padding the bomb stats (granted there is money there).

I would love it if the Jays strung together an inning of 6 straight singles. It is ridiculously demoralizing for a pitcher and defense.

 

[bustaheims]

I would love it if the Jays strung together an inning of 6 straight singles. It is ridiculously demoralizing for a pitcher and defense.

Agreed. Keep turning the lineup over and have runners on base to keep the pressure on the pitcher and the defence. They did that really well during the regular season in 2015 - which lead to some gaudy offensive numbers - but, they still relied too heavily on the long ball.

And, really, with the pitching staff they have now, they don't need to score a ton of runs to win most nights. Sometimes, all they need to do is play for that extra run or two rather than chasing the big inning - especially late in games.

 

[Arn]

That was what irritated me last night watching, struck out swinging at pitches way off the plate during the 7th/8th/9th innings when getting on base and stringing together a few hits or walks could have got the runs needed

 

[Beowulf]

I like what you are all getting at re: small ball (despite my penchant for DINGERS!)

But in terms of existing personnel I'm skeptical that Pillar and Pompey could suddenly improve and learn how to take a walk/make contact. It's not impossible but I wouldn't bet on it. Perhaps I'm being too hard on Pompey but at this point he still has trouble with AAA pitching, so at least for next season it's unlikely.

With Dickey departing his pet black hole Thole goes with him so that's good. But on Dickey I feel bad for him in a way as the trade wasn't his fault and he seems like an intelligent, nice guy. He was a pretty good 3/4 guy in the rotation and inning eater during the regular season too. But that trade is one of the worst in recent memory and he would never have escaped its shadow.

Hopefully Liriano can fill his role next season and continue his late season form. With Stroman/Estrada/Happ/Sanchez he is a luxury to have with that kind of performance.

A quick glance at the free agent market says there's a lot of good relievers there. I wouldn't mind bringing Cecil back cheaply but adding another LH reliever would be great too. Also Grilli will be 40 and Benoit is a free agent, so a lot of question marks besides Osuna.

On the whole though, am I crazy in being somewhat optimistic for 2017?

 

[herman]

At this level, I'd say hitting is less a mechanics issue and more a mental issue; that's something that can be adjusted and taught and incorporated, in my mind.

Take Donaldson (and Bautista) for instance, rebuilding their careers relatively late with a mental adjustment at the plate -- ironically in this case to learn how to be patient just pull the ball when it's in the inner zone for massive bombs. That's perfectly fine for our top guys because when they tag it, it's gone. Donaldson and Encarnacion both hit successfully to the opposite field too.

For our bottom half of the lineup (Tulo/Martin down), it's all about using the whole field so your scouting report isn't just: pitch off-speed down and away, wait in LF for flyball. Hitting to the other side is a mental decision. I think Pillar and Pompey have the physical tools to pull it off, but they're still quite young.

For example: Ichiro Suzuki takes BP like this -- first pitch pull HR, then center, then RF HRs. He hits them routinely and can string up 10 in a row when he feels like it. In games, he takes that level of control and applies to finding gaps in the defense, sacrificing a bit of his power for a lot more control.

 

[Beowulf]

I get what you're saying Herman and it definitely makes sense. However the fact that there are many players who are not able to use the whole field (beyond Pillar and Pompey) speaks to the fact that it's perhaps not that simple to harness that mental side. Or even that there is an element of mechanics to be addressed. But honestly I haven't played baseball much in my life though so I defer to you or anyone else who is more knowledgeable on the mechanics.

They are both young as you point out, Pillar has only played 2 full seasons, and Pompey just finished his first at AAA. So maybe it really is just a matter of time.

 

[herman]

Mechanics often go hand in hand with the mental side. Every hitting coach also has a slightly different hitting philosophy and hitters kind of have to find the one that works for them. There's a lot of snake oil being sold in the business (maybe I'm one of them...?). I don't play baseball myself (I wish), but I do coach and play softball, which is mechanically different, but philosophically quite similar.

Here's a fantastic breakdown of Pompey's growth as a hitter. His approach is not as mature as Travis', and his mechanics are still a work in progress (largely timing), but you can see he has the right tools to be potentially the next Devon White (and a leftie bat to boot).

 

[Kin]

For what it's worth, I think there's a difference between "small ball" which to me typifies that you're in the market to just engineer runs and having a more rounded offense that doesn't rely too much on any one thing. I wouldn't turn down a bat like Mike Trout or Miguel Cabrera because they're power hitters, what I'm saying is more they need guys who, like Trout or Cabrera, do things in addition to hitting with power.

For years the team's offense has largely been built on power and walks but the team has hit a wall when they've faced pitching staffs with control(meaning they're not walking guys but also not serving up meatballs). The Jays need an answer to that and I don't think it's a better type of hitter so much as it is just better hitters.

 

[L K]

For what it's worth, I think there's a difference between "small ball" which to me typifies that you're in the market to just engineer runs and having a more rounded offense that doesn't rely too much on any one thing. I wouldn't turn down a bat like Mike Trout or Miguel Cabrera because they're power hitters, what I'm saying is more they need guys who, like Trout or Cabrera, do things in addition to hitting with power.

For years the team's offense has largely been built on power and walks but the team has hit a wall when they've faced pitching staffs with control(meaning they're not walking guys but also not serving up meatballs). The Jays need an answer to that and I don't think it's a better type of hitter so much as it is just better hitters.

Yeah, I think versatile hitters are the better hitters.  As much as the Jays hitting 30+ home runs is great, I think I would be more content with a team of guys who can hit 20 home runs but can equally go to the opposite field when pitchers start living low and away.

 

[barney_rebel]

We stink BTW

 

[bustaheims]

For what it's worth, I think there's a difference between "small ball" which to me typifies that you're in the market to just engineer runs and having a more rounded offense that doesn't rely too much on any one thing. I wouldn't turn down a bat like Mike Trout or Miguel Cabrera because they're power hitters, what I'm saying is more they need guys who, like Trout or Cabrera, do things in addition to hitting with power.

For years the team's offense has largely been built on power and walks but the team has hit a wall when they've faced pitching staffs with control(meaning they're not walking guys but also not serving up meatballs). The Jays need an answer to that and I don't think it's a better type of hitter so much as it is just better hitters.

I think we're largely on the same page, even if we're calling it different things. The roster needs more versatility and more ways to create offence - especially among the pieces of the roster that aren't going to hit 20+ homers. To me, that means throwing some small ball into the mix, as well as utilizing things like the the hit-and-run more, and, as you and others have said, just generally be better bats.

 

[bustaheims]

But in terms of existing personnel I'm skeptical that Pillar and Pompey could suddenly improve and learn how to take a walk/make contact. It's not impossible but I wouldn't bet on it.

I actually think that, of all the things I'd like to see improve, better pitch/strike zone recognition and patience at the plate might be among the most teachable. You're not going to be able to turn someone like Pillar into a league leading OBP type, but, I don't think it's crazy that he could conceivably be taught/trained enough to raise his OBP ~20 points, cut ~10 Ks off his season total, and make better contact when he does put the ball in play.

 

[hockeyfan1]

That was what irritated me last night watching, struck out swinging at pitches way off the plate during the 7th/8th/9th innings when getting on base and stringing together a few hits or walks could have got the runs needed

Very irritating, indeed.  Feeble swinging at practically 'air', (alright, I didn't mean to describe it that harshly), but yes, one could tell the Jays bats went silent when faced with the kind of pitching the Indians were throwing at them. 

No excuse, though.  Smart hitting means knowing what to do and being versatile enough to figure out what needs to be done.  Cue the hitting coach, the player and the team as a whole.

Cleveland's batters all pitched in in their own way, in various ways.  Communal hitting and all of it.  The Indians claimed no magic potion in winning other than everyone contributing.  How they did probably counts just as much as the results they got.

Oh well, better luck next year, Blue Jays.  Hope they get it right.

Congrats to the Indians on a job well done.