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2017-2018 NHL Thread

This whole thing reeks of a bunch of white-knights tripping over their neckbeards and calculators to be the first to defend Cassie Campbell without taking the time to consider that there is actually a conflict of interest.

I agree that the game is rife with it and that the guns could have and probably should have been pointed elsewhere first, but that doesn't change the fact the original point was correct.

I genuinely think this is one of the biggest issues holding the league back, they are without a doubt not hiring the best people for every job and over time that has a cumulative effect that is going to hold them back.

Lastly, I think Cassie Campbell is actually a talented broadcaster.
 
Every game broadcast in the NHL is either broadcast by the teams themselves, in which case the people covering them are literally team employees, or they're situations where they're employed by a company with the same owners as the team(any Leafs game) or they're employed by a broadcasting outlet with close financial ties to the league.

How is it at all possible to be a broadcaster of a sporting event and not have the appearance of a conflict of interest?
 
Nik the Trik said:
I think we mainly agree on Campbell-gate so instead I want to focus on this right here just because I think it's an interesting thing to consider. Over the last ten years we've seen a big shift in the game and the way it's played and I think something that we sort of have to accept is that a lot of what's leaving the game is some of the sizzle that sold the steak. I get being frustrated with old and out of date narratives that the data doesn't support but the truth is that Hal Gill being a great defensive defenseman because he's a giant monster who can clear the crease and blow up guys at the neutral zone is a compelling narrative. Anton Stralman being an effective defensive defenseman through smart positional play and general intelligence in cutting off shooting opportunities is a harder sell. Sure the former isn't as true but that's not always the point.

Ditto the Matt Martin/Seth Griffith 4th line spot difference. Fighting, and fighters' generally accepted utility in keeping star players safe while sacrificing themselves, was a compelling narrative(see every hockey movie ever made).

Changes being made in the game to accentuate safety and smarter possession based play has data and reason behind it but you gotta admit it can be a tough sell on a Tuesday Night Carolina vs. Buffalo extravaganza and, although it's become a product in and of itself, these broadcasts are still trying to sell us a product. That is a hard thing to do with a 52.4CF%.

So I get being occasionally frustrated with out of date narratives driving coverage, trust me and my hundreds of Don Cherry posts on that one, but keep in mind this is a watered down league trying to sell charisma-free stars and parity-based excitement. You gotta give broadcasters something to work with.

I largely agree with this. It's hard to sell nuance and intelligent strategy when big boom bashing is what really rattles the boards. I also get that there is a huge lag in the way the game is being played in getting recognized by teams, management, broadcasters/journalists, and fans. Those who are operating ahead of the curve are not going to necessarily broadcast what they're doing while it's still an advantage.

I remember it was just a handful of years ago when the Tampa announcer was still calling out Icing etc. to explain to the crowd why the ref blew the whistle, or even the glowing puck era of Fox sports. This is a marketing problem, and the broadcasters are probably the best situated to teach people how the game can be enjoyed. Baseball and American Football are a great deal more complicated in the minutae of rulings and number of moving parts, but the fans have picked it up (partly due to glacial pace of play or turn-based action).
 
Re: conflict of interest
Sure, it's technically true, but it only actually matters if it can influence the result of the game.

So if Cassie Campbell were the ref for that Calgary game, then it's a-OK to call foul. But she's an analyst and not even on the ice.
 
Nik the Trik said:
Every game broadcast in the NHL is either broadcast by the teams themselves, in which case the people covering them are literally team employees, or they're situations where they're employed by a company with the same owners as the team(any Leafs game) or they're employed by a broadcasting outlet with close financial ties to the league.

How is it at all possible to be a broadcaster of a sporting event and not have the appearance of a conflict of interest?

I think the main problem is the constant stream of ex-players shoehorned into positions they are not suitable for, from broadcasting to hockey operations and beyond.

I understand that there is value in hiring people who have been around the game their whole life, I just don't think it makes them the best candidates necessarily.

I'm not calling for no conflict, I take your point Nik that a certain amount is inevitable, although having broadcasters calling the games of their spouse seems like a pretty easy fix.

I just think that right now the NHL is wading in with both feet with little to no thought as to the harm it's doing. It's responsible for the small town vibe the NHL still has, it stifles diverse thinking and stunts innovation.
 
Sidebar: https://twitter.com/jtbourne/status/937885659196305408

a) Mat Barzal plays the way I think Marner could if he had just a bit more speed (and gumption to shoot).
b) Nylander and Matthews already sort of do this
c) haha, Chiarelli
 
herman said:
a) Mat Barzal plays the way I think Marner could if he had just a bit more speed (and gumption to shoot).
b) Nylander and Matthews already sort of do this
c) haha, Chiarelli

d) How the heck did Boston pass on him three times in a row
 
Ken Campbell's stance on Cassie Campbell is one of the most ridiculous non-stories you can cause a stir over.  She was calling the game, not influencing it.  Who gives a crap.  The NHL and its broadcasters are full of conflicts of interest then.
 
WhatIfGodWasALeaf said:
I'm not calling for no conflict, I take your point Nik that a certain amount is inevitable, although having broadcasters calling the games of their spouse seems like a pretty easy fix.

I guess it just seems to me to be a weird place to start. Like, don't start with the fact that teams employ the actual broadcasters and they're actively reading ticket ads in other markets...start with the woman whose husband has a minor front office role?

WhatIfGodWasALeaf said:
I just think that right now the NHL is wading in with both feet with little to no thought as to the harm it's doing. It's responsible for the small town vibe the NHL still has, it stifles diverse thinking and stunts innovation.

Well, I can't argue there although I'd argue that this sort of thing permeates all leagues.
 
Peter D. said:
herman said:
a) Mat Barzal plays the way I think Marner could if he had just a bit more speed (and gumption to shoot).
b) Nylander and Matthews already sort of do this
c) haha, Chiarelli

d) How the heck did Boston pass on him three times in a row

Apparently Barzal was perceived as "cocky" when interviewed before the draft.  Lets not forget what the Bruins tend to do with their young, flashy, cocky players.  Even if they selected him, they'd be gearing up to trade him by now.

(Sweeney has been in the Boston front office since 2006- he's part of the same group that traded away Kessel and Seguin.  If anyone expected things to change when he took over- he then traded Dougie Hamilton just months into his tenure as GM of the Bruins)
 
herman said:
I largely agree with this. It's hard to sell nuance and intelligent strategy when big boom bashing is what really rattles the boards. I also get that there is a huge lag in the way the game is being played in getting recognized by teams, management, broadcasters/journalists, and fans. Those who are operating ahead of the curve are not going to necessarily broadcast what they're doing while it's still an advantage.

I remember it was just a handful of years ago when the Tampa announcer was still calling out Icing etc. to explain to the crowd why the ref blew the whistle, or even the glowing puck era of Fox sports. This is a marketing problem, and the broadcasters are probably the best situated to teach people how the game can be enjoyed. Baseball and American Football are a great deal more complicated in the minutae of rulings and number of moving parts, but the fans have picked it up (partly due to glacial pace of play or turn-based action).

Maybe but both of those sports are also having trouble with reconciling what analytics are leading to in terms of strategy and roster construction while still appealing to fans. Baseball's a perfect example. In Baseball, taking pitches while waiting for one to smash into orbit is generally seen as a good thing by numbers guys. But everyone taking pitches leads to pitchers' arms getting tired which leads to pitching changes which all add up to games taking longer and Baseball is really wrestling with the length of games.

Look, I like to think I'm a reasonably smart guy and that I've followed along with the analytical revolution pretty well even if I have some differences with it but that doesn't mean I think it's all fascinating. Some of it is a slog, especially for someone who isn't much on math on his best days, and here at TMLfans.ca we're a subsection of a subsection of a subsection of NHL fans. Yes, the more people understand this stuff the more they might appreciate it to a degree but I understand Anton Stralman's value while still thinking he's not a very exciting player to watch.

You know, Vince Lombardi was wrong. Winning isn't everything in sports. Sure, to people employed within the game that has to be their priority and for us weirdos here understanding the nuts and bolts is a worthwhile pursuit but tickets still need to get sold to a general public and a general public is probably never going to get to a place where they appreciate minutiae the way they'd need to for this stuff to be appealing to them.

We saw it in the 90's with the Devils where the smart way to play defensive hockey that would allow a smaller payroll team to be "competitive" really hurt the sport. This isn't that but the more that winning gets pressed down into a single equation where strategy either fits it or it doesn't you will to battle what we're seeing some of in the NBA where it's a lot of sameness and every game is a pick and roll or 3 point contest and the winning team is the one that shoots 46.3 percent instead of 42.5 or whatever. Turn everything into a chess match and you find out pretty quickly why chess is kind of a niche viewing sport.

You know, we can talk all day about how rejecting modern structure and exploring traditional icelandic folklore is much more interesting artistically than a 3 minute pop song about a bad breakup and be right but sadly we still live in a world where Taylor Swift is going to sell more records than Sigur Ros ever did and the NHL is trying to fill the same arenas Ms. Swift does pretty easily.
 
That's very well written.

Is catering to the lower/est common denominator the best way to go for the league's branding? Because the coaches and trainers and front offices that want to win are just going to do what they know works and try to find new advantages to exploit. I think it would behoove the media that is fed by the sport to try to ride in tandem with the game, instead of trying to hold it back for nostalgia or whatever.
 
Nik the Trik said:
herman said:
I largely agree with this. It's hard to sell nuance and intelligent strategy when big boom bashing is what really rattles the boards. I also get that there is a huge lag in the way the game is being played in getting recognized by teams, management, broadcasters/journalists, and fans. Those who are operating ahead of the curve are not going to necessarily broadcast what they're doing while it's still an advantage.

I remember it was just a handful of years ago when the Tampa announcer was still calling out Icing etc. to explain to the crowd why the ref blew the whistle, or even the glowing puck era of Fox sports. This is a marketing problem, and the broadcasters are probably the best situated to teach people how the game can be enjoyed. Baseball and American Football are a great deal more complicated in the minutae of rulings and number of moving parts, but the fans have picked it up (partly due to glacial pace of play or turn-based action).

Maybe but both of those sports are also having trouble with reconciling what analytics are leading to in terms of strategy and roster construction while still appealing to fans. Baseball's a perfect example. In Baseball, taking pitches while waiting for one to smash into orbit is generally seen as a good thing by numbers guys. But everyone taking pitches leads to pitchers' arms getting tired which leads to pitching changes which all add up to games taking longer and Baseball is really wrestling with the length of games.

Look, I like to think I'm a reasonably smart guy and that I've followed along with the analytical revolution pretty well even if I have some differences with it but that doesn't mean I think it's all fascinating. Some of it is a slog, especially for someone who isn't much on math on his best days, and here at TMLfans.ca we're a subsection of a subsection of a subsection of NHL fans. Yes, the more people understand this stuff the more they might appreciate it to a degree but I understand Anton Stralman's value while still thinking he's not a very exciting player to watch.

You know, Vince Lombardi was wrong. Winning isn't everything in sports. Sure, to people employed within the game that has to be their priority and for us weirdos here understanding the nuts and bolts is a worthwhile pursuit but tickets still need to get sold to a general public and a general public is probably never going to get to a place where they appreciate minutiae the way they'd need to for this stuff to be appealing to them.

We saw it in the 90's with the Devils where the smart way to play defensive hockey that would allow a smaller payroll team to be "competitive" really hurt the sport. This isn't that but the more that winning gets pressed down into a single equation where strategy either fits it or it doesn't you will to battle what we're seeing some of in the NBA where it's a lot of sameness and every game is a pick and roll or 3 point contest and the winning team is the one that shoots 46.3 percent instead of 42.5 or whatever. Turn everything into a chess match and you find out pretty quickly why chess is kind of a niche viewing sport.

You know, we can talk all day about how rejecting modern structure and exploring traditional icelandic folklore is much more interesting artistically than a 3 minute pop song about a bad breakup and be right but sadly we still live in a world where Taylor Swift is going to sell more records than Sigur Ros ever did and the NHL is trying to fill the same arenas Ms. Swift does pretty easily.

Interesting that you bring up the NBA, where things are certainly changing due to analytics (more 3 pt attempts than ever, more spacing, smaller lineups, everyone switching defensively, etc) yet their TV viewership is WAY up.  Much of that "sameness" doesn't seem to be hurting the league at all.  Then again, the players in that league are way less robotic (compared to NHL) and their fan-base is much less inclined to turn off the tv if they see players taking a stance socially (compared to NFL).  Furthermore, there is just way less parity in that league and despite the fact you know which four or five teams have the only legit chance at a championship they seem to be drawing in viewers. 
 
herman said:
That's very well written.

Is catering to the lower/est common denominator the best way to go for the league's branding? Because the coaches and trainers and front offices that want to win are just going to do what they know works and try to find new advantages to exploit. I think it would behoove the media that is fed by the sport to try to ride in tandem with the game, instead of trying to hold it back for nostalgia or whatever.

I think that maybe instead of looking at it as high-minded vs. low-minded appeal the League/its broadcast partners will be going for it's a question of broad appeal vs. narrow appeal. I think that what that would ideally lead to would be a recognition that there are many avenues for enjoying the game and that the ideal hockey broadcast(from the league's perspective) would try to incorporate them all.

Because ultimately the media that is fed by the sport still has to deal with the sport as a product. So if those coaches and trainers and front office folks are producing a hard to sell product it's going to be a natural instinct to sell it with patter and bluster instead of honest appraisal.

So, yeah, I think ideally the media would want to be giving us an idea of why certain strategies or players are better than others but they'd also ideally have the freedom to say that, you know, effective strategies can be boring and aesthetics matter when dealing with an entertainment product.

 
Coco-puffs said:
Interesting that you bring up the NBA, where things are certainly changing due to analytics (more 3 pt attempts than ever, more spacing, smaller lineups, everyone switching defensively, etc) yet their TV viewership is WAY up.  Much of that "sameness" doesn't seem to be hurting the league at all.  Then again, the players in that league are way less robotic (compared to NHL) and their fan-base is much less inclined to turn off the tv if they see players taking a stance socially (compared to NFL).  Furthermore, there is just way less parity in that league and despite the fact you know which four or five teams have the only legit chance at a championship they seem to be drawing in viewers.

Yeah, also though I think some of the analytics in the NBA have helped because in addition to threes they emphasize shots at the rim and getting to the bucket is basketball at its most exciting. Basically, as we've seen with the Warriors, Spurs and Cavs, modern ball prizes ball movement, transitional play and getting to the hoop which are all things fans enjoy.

So you're right that the sameness there isn't hurting the NBA but that's because the quality of the individual games are very good and everyone gets to watch and have fun watching those 4 or 5 teams with a shot. I'd be hardpressed to say that either of those things are true right now with the NHL.
 
Nik the Trik said:
Coco-puffs said:
Interesting that you bring up the NBA, where things are certainly changing due to analytics (more 3 pt attempts than ever, more spacing, smaller lineups, everyone switching defensively, etc) yet their TV viewership is WAY up.  Much of that "sameness" doesn't seem to be hurting the league at all.  Then again, the players in that league are way less robotic (compared to NHL) and their fan-base is much less inclined to turn off the tv if they see players taking a stance socially (compared to NFL).  Furthermore, there is just way less parity in that league and despite the fact you know which four or five teams have the only legit chance at a championship they seem to be drawing in viewers.

Yeah, also though I think some of the analytics in the NBA have helped because in addition to threes they emphasize shots at the rim and getting to the bucket is basketball at its most exciting. Basically, as we've seen with the Warriors, Spurs and Cavs, modern ball prizes ball movement, transitional play and getting to the hoop which are all things fans enjoy.

So you're right that the sameness there isn't hurting the NBA but that's because the quality of the individual games are very good and everyone gets to watch and have fun watching those 4 or 5 teams with a shot. I'd be hardpressed to say that either of those things are true right now with the NHL.

Very good point about attacking the rim more making it more exciting.  By going smaller / more outside shooters it makes getting to the rim a bit easier too.  Pace and space. 

The sameness they execute is because it simply gets the job done in opening up either shots at the rim or the open 3 depending on what the other team is able to accomplish defensively.  One change they made this season that I really like:  If you are fouled now attacking the basket PRIOR to bringing the ball up for a shot, its not a shooting foul.  Less free throws = quicker pace.
 
Coco-puffs said:
Very good point about attacking the rim more making it more exciting.  By going smaller / more outside shooters it makes getting to the rim a bit easier too.  Pace and space. 

The sameness they execute is because it simply gets the job done in opening up either shots at the rim or the open 3 depending on what the other team is able to accomplish defensively.  One change they made this season that I really like:  If you are fouled now attacking the basket PRIOR to bringing the ball up for a shot, its not a shooting foul.  Less free throws = quicker pace.

Which I think speaks to another piece of this puzzle that speaks to both what WIGWAL was saying a while back and what I'm talking to with Herman. The NBA seems to be freer to be both pro and reactive in changing rules so analytical approaches that deaden the game aren't effective. The cronyism/nepotism/whatever that WIGWAL took on I think manifests itself a lot as a resistance to change from existing GMs who learned a certain set of effective methods and are terrified at having to adapt to changing rules or new strategies that encourage new and deeper fandom.

 

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