2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

[Bates]

It's odd that you dismiss 3 cases where it has happened...

I appreciate that this stuff tends to elude you but what I did was contest that those are three cases where "it" happened. None of the three were top defensemen when they were traded and in at least one case, Hamilton, he emphatically was not traded for a forward. Burns, likewise, was mainly dealt for a pick and a prospect with a 3rd line forward thrown into the deal. The Jones thing is the only trade that structurally resembles what was being suggested and I go into some detail as to why it's a bad comparable.

Again, if we're going to game plan around unlikely things happening we may as well game plan around massive internal growth for the team's defensive prospects.

The key part of Hamilton trade was a 1st round pick used to pick a forward. Obviously not  a Nylander but a Top young D was traded, thats kinda the point. Seth Jones was on his way to being a great D, so to dismiss that is well very Nicky. I wouldn't really expect a Top end stud D in return when we aren't really giving that kind of forward up. Nylander is a secondary winger, i would expect the return to reflect that.

 

[bustaheims]

As rumoured for a long time I could see a beneficial deal for both teams between Carolina and Toronto, but it might be less value than Nylander. But in reality I doubt a deal for Nylander will be proposed.

If Carolina is willing to move Slavin, sure. I wouldn?t trade Nylander for any of their other defencemen.

 

[Bates]

As rumoured for a long time I could see a beneficial deal for both teams between Carolina and Toronto, but it might be less value than Nylander. But in reality I doubt a deal for Nylander will be proposed.

If Carolina is willing to move Slavin, sure. I wouldn?t trade Nylander for any of their other defencemen.

What about Nylander plus for Hamilton plus? I don't see them moving either at this point. But who knows, they might not want to pay his next contract ?

 

[bustaheims]

What about Nylander plus for Hamilton plus? I don't see them moving either at this point. But who knows, they might not want to pay his next contract ?

Not under contract long enough to guarantee value. Not moving 4.5 years of Nylander for only 1.5 locked in for Hamilton.

 

[Kin]

Obviously not  a Nylander but a Top young D was traded, thats kinda the point.

No. The point was emphatically "what sort of defenseman could the team get for Nylander". No one put forth the claim that no team has ever traded a young defenseman with potential to eventually become a top pairing guy so a bunch of examples where a defenseman with potential was traded for a bunch of stuff that in no way resembles what Nylander is has very little to do with the question being raised.

Seth Jones was, indeed, a very good defensive prospect when he was traded for. I in no way dismissed that. What I said it's not particularly relevant because the situation Nashville was in is incredibly unlikely to be repeated and, even if it was, Johansen was a much more valuable trade piece than Nylander is.

Again, though, we're back to the fundamental reality that a trade of Nylander(remember that. We're talking about trading Nylander. Nylander. William Nylander. Not Picks. William Nylander. Understand?) for a defenseman would be unlikely to yield good value in return.

 

[Bates]

What about Nylander plus for Hamilton plus? I don't see them moving either at this point. But who knows, they might not want to pay his next contract ?

Not under contract long enough to guarantee value. Not moving 4.5 years of Nylander for only 1.5 locked in for Hamilton.

I was thinking more of after season with new conteact agreed upon rather than right now scenario.

 

[Bates]

I'm always confused at that.  There isn't a poster on the site would would argue that the Leafs shouldn't trade Nylander if the right deal came around to get a top tier defenseman.  The reality is that forwards never yield you top defensemen.  The Oilers traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson.  That's what you get when you trade forwards for defensemen.  The Leafs aren't going to get value for Nylander in that deal and their team isn't better with Adam Larsson on the blueline and Nylander out of the lineup.

Here is the post I quoted Nik, feel free to point out what you added later in here??? Forwards never yield you top defensemen is the key part I answered.

 

[Kin]

Here is the post I quoted Nik, feel free to point out what you added later in here??? Forwards never yield you top defensemen is the key part I answered.

I would think the context of citing the Hall trade would make it pretty obvious that by "Forwards" he didn't mean "Draft picks that eventually became forwards" and that the context of humans using language meant "Top Defensemen" didn't mean "Defensemen who the team decided to use at forward for a couple seasons before eventually establishing themselves as a top defensemen".

Which brings us back to Jones which, again, I think I've explained pretty thoroughly why it's a bad comparison(any of which you're free to actually challenge rather than engaging in your usual bout of mindless contradiction) but, even if it isn't, still shouldn't be used by anyone as a realistic guide to improving the team's defense. Like I said, it's like using the Joe Thornton trade as a game plan for adding a #1 centre in their prime.

 

[bustaheims]

I was thinking more of after season with new conteact agreed upon rather than right now scenario.

Then it really depends on what that contract looks like.

 

[Kin]

I was thinking more of after season with new conteact agreed upon rather than right now scenario.

Then it really depends on what that contract looks like.

Would it though? I like Dougie Hamilton a lot and obviously he's currently having a heck of a first half of the year but even if you get past the question of whether or not Carolina would even entertain the idea you're then left with the question of if the Leafs only have the one bullet to pull off a big time trade to address the problems with the team defensively if Dougie Hamilton is the guy who meaningfully improves the team's play without the puck.

He's a terrific offensive defenseman and a valuable piece overall but I really don't think the problem with this team that needs to be addressed is a lack of good quality offensive defensmen.

 

[Hobbes]

I was thinking more of after season with new conteact agreed upon rather than right now scenario.

Then it really depends on what that contract looks like.

Would it though? I like Dougie Hamilton a lot and obviously he's currently having a heck of a first half of the year but even if you get past the question of whether or not Carolina would even entertain the idea you're then left with the question of if the Leafs only have the one bullet to pull off a big time trade to address the problems with the team defensively if Dougie Hamilton is the guy who meaningfully improves the team's play without the puck.

He's a terrific offensive defenseman and a valuable piece overall but I really don't think the problem with this team that needs to be addressed is a lack of good quality offensive defensmen.

You want Shea Weber 8-10 years ago.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Trade Nylander and we're left with a single top-6 winger on the team. That's a problem. He just isn't as expendable as some people think he is. I get the defence can use improving, but not at that cost*.

*obligatory comment that specifies if the defenceman is a Provorov/Werenski type then sure let's talk but those guys aren't available so let's stop pretending this is what we're talking about when people say 'Trade Nylander!'

 

[hockeyfan1]

Trade Nylander and we're left with a single top-6 winger on the team. That's a problem. He just isn't as expendable as some people think he is. I get the defence can use improving, but not at that cost*.

*obligatory comment that specifies if the defenceman is a Provorov/Werenski type then sure let's talk but those guys aren't available so let's stop pretending this is what we're talking about when people say 'Trade Nylander!'

Precisely why trading Nylander is impractical at this point in time.

I am not a fan of trading either of Nylander nor Marner unless the return is something stupendous.

 

[herman]

Y?all know there?s a dedicated thread for trading Nylander, right?

Here?s a fun video of some of Willy?s work as a 12 year old
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmkfpNXvCsU

He?s playing against 13-14 year olds here.

Here?s a fun video of some of Willy?s work as a 19-22 year old
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfdbqjv2LBw

You might hate the half a dozen times a month he releases on a backcheck off a turnover, but you can?t deny how often he is bringing the puck from nothing into super dangerous slot chances for himself and his teammates through his skating, puck handling, puck recovery effort, and shooting every game (even on off nights) unless you?re actively ignoring it.

The only players on this team currently better than Willy at:
Speed Skating: Kapanen
Edge work: uh... maybe Dermott?
Shot: Matthews, Tavares
Passing: slight edge to Marner
Neutral Zone transition: no one
Puck thievery: Matthews, maybe Marner
Forechecking puck retrieval: Hyman
Puck handling in extra coverage: Matthews, Tavares

 

[Kin]

You want Shea Weber 8-10 years ago.

I would grudgingly settle for turn of the century Chris Pronger.

Also, while I have doubts that Hamilton would solve any of the Leafs problems it's kind of inarguable that trading Hamilton would create a problem for Carolina. Not only would it leave them with just Pesce and Van Riemsdyk on the Right Side but they don't have another top tier offensive defenseman. Hamilton has almost twice as many points as their #2 scoring defenseman and more than three times as many as their #3.

On the flip of that, Carolina does have quite a few good young forwards with Aho and Martin Necas down the middle and Teravainen and Svechnikov on the wing. I don't think they're as good as the Leafs' group but they're pretty far from being the sort of "desperate" team that some of these designs are predicated on.

 

[Hobbes]

You might hate the half a dozen times a month he releases on a backcheck off a turnover, but you can?t deny how often he is bringing the puck from nothing into super dangerous slot chances for himself and his teammates through his skating, puck handling, puck recovery effort, and shooting every game (even on off nights) unless you?re actively ignoring it.

For the record I'm a huge fan of what Willy can bring when he chooses to bring it and I think we'd regret trading him unless it was one of those unicorn type deals like the Jones-Johansen and I don't see any obvious candidates for that.

I strongly suspect any significant upgrade on our D will have to come from drafting/developing our own so the hope would be that guys like Holl and Dermott keep improving, that Sandin and Liljgren are able to step in later this season (post deadline) or at next camp and earn a job, and maybe we can get lucky on a few diamonds in the rough or poached from overseas.

I really don't see a whole lot of room to improve our roster this year. The only hope might be something where we trade one of our decent excess wingers (not Willy or Marner but anyone else would be up for discussion) plus Ceci in exchange for a 3/4 "Muz-light" kind of player who plays with a bit more jam and isn't quite such a defensive liability. No clue at all who that might be.

The other idea that's been lurking around in the back of my mind is to trade Ceci to someone for essentially nothing (maybe we add in a 7th round pick or whatever and get back a 6th?) and use that newly opened roster spot to bring Sandin or Liljgren up...but that assumes that they'd be able to handle the much higher difficulty level of the tail end of the season and possible playoffs.

I would grudgingly settle for turn of the century Chris Pronger.

Or Neidermayer or Lidstrom or Coffey or Orr or....

Like you, I don't see the Canes as a fit. Not sure any team is...or at least one presumes that if there were a good fit, Dubas would likely have acted on it already. He took his stab at a reclamation project (Ceci) and it's still possible that could come to fruition in a sheltered bottom pairing with Dermott.

Barrie has looked a lot better under Keefe, and if Muz-Holl can keep improving as they have and can be relied upon to be the shut down pairing, the Rielly-Barrie second pair might be a net positive, so even just going with the status quo might not be the end of the world. The way we're playing right now, we have a shot of getting into the playoffs as a non-wildcard team and I don't mind our chances against any of the other likely Atlantic opponents in the first round (assuming Boston will finish #1, the scariest remaining team would be the Bolts and our roster is a bit better suited to handle them than the Bruins, though that won't be a cake walk either...Sabres, Habs, Panthers are all beatable).

So maybe this is the year to do nothing else at all and just go with what we have. I don't see this as a cup team, but we can probably make the playoffs and win a round, then hopefully find a better fit for the back end with some promotions from the Marlies (think trying to re-sign Muz would be priority #1 moreso than Barrie).

 

[Kin]

Or Neidermayer or Lidstrom or Coffey or Orr or....

Just personally, of the guys I've seen play in my lifetime, my top 5 Defensemen I'd want on the ice with a 1 goal lead are:

1. Pronger
2. Lidstrom
3. Bourque
4. Chara
5. Niedermayer/Keith

Although that may be a little off topic.

 

[ZBBM]

The other idea that's been lurking around in the back of my mind is to trade Ceci to someone for essentially nothing (maybe we add in a 7th round pick or whatever and get back a 6th?) and use that newly opened roster spot to bring Sandin or Liljgren up...but that assumes that they'd be able to handle the much higher difficulty level of the tail end of the season and possible playoffs.

Duh. 

To me what we have here is a test of Dubas's maturity and self-confidence.  Maybe he had to do that particular Zaitsev trade to get rid of the excess cap space (debatable, but whatever) but now that he's had a good look-see-see at 83 he ought to be able to man up, recognize (to himself at least) that his stats with OTT were not an aberration, and get rid of him for whatever he can get.

As to whether Liljegren and/or Sandin can handle it in the playoffs come spring, I have a simple response: Who cares?  They have to learn sometime, and better now than in 2021 when we are a year closer to the end of all these deliciously expensive Big 4 contracts.  As you say we are not on the cusp of greatness, so Kyle quit farting around with Cody Ceci and get on with what needs to be done.

 

[Bates]

Or Neidermayer or Lidstrom or Coffey or Orr or....

Just personally, of the guys I've seen play in my lifetime, my top 5 Defensemen I'd want on the ice with a 1 goal lead are:

1. Pronger
2. Lidstrom
3. Bourque
4. Chara
5. Niedermayer/Keith

Although that may be a little off topic.

A few guys on that list that were traded for forwards!!

 

[Hobbes]

Or Neidermayer or Lidstrom or Coffey or Orr or....

Just personally, of the guys I've seen play in my lifetime, my top 5 Defensemen I'd want on the ice with a 1 goal lead are:

1. Pronger
2. Lidstrom
3. Bourque
4. Chara
5. Niedermayer/Keith

Although that may be a little off topic.

Pretty hard to argue with that list. For mine, I got to see the tail end of Orr's career so he'd instantly jump to #1, but I'm fine with Pronger as #2. Bourque would be my #3 ahead of Lidstrom though that's a close call.

That last spot would be a horrible decision. Beyond guys like Chara and Niedermayer I also got to see Brad Park, Al McInnis, Larry Robinson, Phil Housley, Denis Potvin, and Larry Murphy play and, much as I like Keith, I don't think he's in the same conversation. Salming might be in the mix too, though that's probably more due to homerism.

Dragging it back on topic, what we need is something like a Letang...a gem drafted in the middle round. Unfortunately our competitive window might not have enough time for that (not to mention the fans would riot before that hypothetical player had enough time to develop).

...so Kyle quit farting around with Cody Ceci and get on with what needs to be done.

It takes two to tango. I don't want to see him have to cough up a decent pick or young asset to move on from Ceci so it might just be that there's no other GM willing to take on that salary at a price Dubas is willing to pay. If he can find a way to move on by the deadline, great, as long as the cost is minimal. If not, let him play out the season on the 3rd pairing, and if you really want to you can bring up one of the kids for the playoffs when there's no cap. Ceci can be a black ace while one of the others gets his feet wet on the 3rd pairing.