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2020-2021 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

OldTimeHockey said:
I don't know that you're inserting Nash to score goals. I think you're inserting him to truly be a shutdown centre. Which allows you to free up Matthews from playing against the other team's top lines. That's my thoughts anyways.

I think Kerfoot - Nash - Hyman is a fantastic shutdown line.
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Sure, I get that, but he's yet to play a game, I don't share in the enthusiasm.

I'd rather go into the playoffs with the guys that got us there, Galchy, Mikheyev, Kerfoot, etc.


Also, in the most recent playoffs the Leafs had a problem scoring goals not preventing them. I'm sure I want to lose any of that. Hyman - Kerfoot - Mikheyev could put some points on the board.
 
Dappleganger said:
With all due respect, I don't understand inserting Riley Nash into the lineup. He's yet to play a game for the Leafs and he's averaged 3.3 goals over the last 3 seasons. He seems like a great fallback plan if there are injuries, but I see him more like the Marincin of the forward group, a guy waiting in the wings.
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He's an elite shutdown center and excellent penalty killer. The PK hasn't exactly been a source of strength with the team's current personnel, and special teams is often a difference maker in the playoffs. He might not be as important a piece against the Habs, but gotta get him into games, as he will be vital if the Leafs move on.
 
Dappleganger said:
Also, in the most recent playoffs the Leafs had a problem scoring goals not preventing them. I'm sure I want to lose any of that. Hyman - Kerfoot - Mikheyev could put some points on the board.
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But that line really struggled to produce much offence in their (limited) time together at the start of the season. So if that line's just there to play to a tie with one of the opposition scorings lines I'd rather a defensive specialist like Nash take those minutes so a more skilled player like Kerfoot can go on L2 to produce offence.

Dappleganger said:
I'd rather go into the playoffs with the guys that got us there, Galchy, Mikheyev, Kerfoot, etc.
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I will say I do buy into this idea a little bit, and that's why I have Gally on the outside over guys like Kerfoot and Mikheyev. I'm not sure his 24 games really qualify as being someone who "got us there", especially when Engvall has played 40 games and isn't really in the conversation playing game 1 of the playoffs.
 
This is a really interesting debate.  Dappleganger has a point about taking scorers off the board (even if, like Mikheyev, their scoring has been more potential than actual this year).

Vs MTL, if Price is back in and he starts stoning us, then I would question having Nash in over anybody else who can score better.  We don't need an elite shutdown center to shut down MTL.
 
Dappleganger said:
With all due respect, I don't understand inserting Riley Nash into the lineup. He's yet to play a game for the Leafs and he's averaged 3.3 goals over the last 3 seasons. He seems like a great fallback plan if there are injuries, but I see him more like the Marincin of the forward group, a guy waiting in the wings.
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I agree. I don't see Keefe fixing what isn't broken. Nash may go in for Brooks on the 4th, but that's it for me right now. He doesn't have enough offence to warrant a 3rd line role.
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
This is a really interesting debate.  Dappleganger has a point about taking scorers off the board (even if, like Mikheyev, their scoring has been more potential than actual this year).

Vs MTL, if Price is back in and he starts stoning us, then I would question having Nash in over anybody else who can score better.  We don't need an elite shutdown center to shut down MTL.
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1) I'm not so sure it's true that we don't need a shutdown guy to beat Montreal. Suzuki would be the guy that line goes up against and he has 19 points in his last 21 games including 7 points in 6 games against Toronto in that span. He could be an x-factor for them.

2) Like I said before I think having Nash in that spot actually improves our offence on other lines. As a Leaf Kerfoot hasn't really shown that he can produce much offence as the 3C, but has a good track record of putting up points on the Tavares line while also being a good defensive presence.

3) Nash, if he plays like he has in the past, is a guy who will probably provide more value in the 2nd, 3rd, and hopefully 4th rounds of the playoffs when we're playing teams with a deeper offensive roster.
 
Pretty much any lineup configuration where Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Nylander, Muzzin, and Brodie anchor the top 6 and 4 respectively with Campbell in net is going to be defensible and largely effective. Every other minutae of lineup detail is just adjusting the flavour of the team to take advantage of the opponent, and there are enough ingredients to play multiple styles of the game.

It's pretty fun to build with so many viable pieces.

I think we will roll with whatever produces the following:
1st line: score over hard matchup
2nd line: score over softer matchup
3rd line: make nothing happen for the opposing top line
4th line: score over opposing depth options

1st pair: get the puck and give it to the forwards; shutdown
2nd pair: get the puck and give it to the forwards (and present a wide option)
3rd pair: get the puck and play it safe
 
Riley Nash (shutdown 3C) was the type of player I thought we needed to get over the offseason or explore at the trade deadline if internal options did not suffice. He will definitely be used.
 
Kerfoot's played about 250 minutes of 5-on-5 hockey with Mikheyev this season and the Leafs scored 6 goals for in those minutes. That's 1.42 GF/60, which is a pretty low number. So while I think there's some arguments against having Nash in the line-up I'm not really sure being worried about getting offence from L3 is one of them, because it's not something the Leafs can really count on either way.
 
I've had the discussion quite a bit lately with other coaches about picking the top 9(youth hockey) most talented players to ice a team. Some coaches have no issue assigning those top 9/12 skaters to players that can "score".

I see it differently and closer to what herman highlights above. A team cannot be built solely on skilled players. You need scorers, play controllers, play drivers, and momentum killers. Those roles can overlap each other, but I think every successful team for the most part has those type of players. The Oilers had Gretzky, Kurri and Messier but they also had Esa Tikannen and Dave Hunter. The Habs had Naslund and Smith but also had Skrudland. The islanders had Bossy and Trottier but they also had Nystrom.

I'm not calling Nash any of those players(in the least), but if he brings something to the table that the other players don't and the scoring categories are basically a wash, you put him in the line up.

Another option you have is to put Hyman back up with Marner and Matthews and put Foligno and Nash together.

As for goal scoring in the playoffs, it's not how many, it's when. The grinders at the bottom of your lineup don't need to score all your goals, or even a reasonable portion of it. They just need to score timely goals. Travis Green scoring in double OT in 2002 is an example of that.
 
For me, I look back at the series in Edmonton earlier this year where the Leafs only allowed one goal over 3 games, and the shutdown line was Mikheyev - Engvall - Hyman, and they absolutely dominated in a shutdown role and even chipped in on offense.  If you can get that same sort of result with Kerfoot at centre instead, I would be okay with doing that.

Like Guilt Trip, I see Nash coming into the lineup, but more likely on the 4th line.
 
louisstamos said:
For me, I look back at the series in Edmonton earlier this year where the Leafs only allowed one goal over 3 games, and the shutdown line was Mikheyev - Engvall - Hyman, and they absolutely dominated in a shutdown role and even chipped in on offense.  If you can get that same sort of result with Kerfoot at centre instead, I would be okay with doing that.
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I think Engvall is just way too inconsistent to be trusted with that role right now. He has all the tools to be a very good 3rd line defensive centre but just doesn't play like it every day. Maybe with more experience next season it'll finally click, but Keefe won't give him that role right now with so much on the line.

louisstamos said:
Like Guilt Trip, I see Nash coming into the lineup, but more likely on the 4th line.
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I don't think Nash on the 4th line makes a lot of sense for 2 reasons:

1) It means one of Spezza, Thornton, and Simmonds aren't on the 4th line. So they're either somewhere in the top-9 (probably not ideal) or they're in the press box (something I don't think will happen, at least to start the playoffs).

2) Nash's whole MO is that he's terrific defensively but not so terrific offensively. He has a long track record of suppressing shots against but that comes with not having any shot attempts going the other way. On the ice this translates to basically nothing happening either way when he's out there. This would be a positive for the Leafs if he's on a checking line going against an opposing scoring line, but the Leafs don't want that from their 4th line. They want that line to carry the play and get offensive opportunities against lesser competition. Having Nash with two of Thornton/Spezza/Simmonds might prevent them from doing that.

So for Nash it's really 3rd line or bust.
 
Heroic Shrimp said:
https://twitter.com/douggilmour/status/1389333252629057540

This goal is right up there among my top Leaf memories, 28 years ago tonight.
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Well a week late but what a great memory! Great team. RIP Pat Burns.
 
Heroic Shrimp said:
https://twitter.com/douggilmour/status/1389333252629057540

This goal is right up there among my top Leaf memories, 28 years ago tonight.
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I remember clearly watching that OT at Lulu?s Roadhouse in Kitchener  (longest bar in the world at the time) won?t forget that one .
 
CarltonTheBear said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
This is a really interesting debate.  Dappleganger has a point about taking scorers off the board (even if, like Mikheyev, their scoring has been more potential than actual this year).

Vs MTL, if Price is back in and he starts stoning us, then I would question having Nash in over anybody else who can score better.  We don't need an elite shutdown center to shut down MTL.
Click to expand...

1) I'm not so sure it's true that we don't need a shutdown guy to beat Montreal. Suzuki would be the guy that line goes up against and he has 19 points in his last 21 games including 7 points in 6 games against Toronto in that span. He could be an x-factor for them.

2) Like I said before I think having Nash in that spot actually improves our offence on other lines. As a Leaf Kerfoot hasn't really shown that he can produce much offence as the 3C, but has a good track record of putting up points on the Tavares line while also being a good defensive presence.

3) Nash, if he plays like he has in the past, is a guy who will probably provide more value in the 2nd, 3rd, and hopefully 4th rounds of the playoffs when we're playing teams with a deeper offensive roster.
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I mean, we've kind of seen what he did against us in the last couple of playoffs. Why are we writing him off all of a sudden because he's not an offensive weapon?

You can never win in this fanbase. Dubas is leaning to heavily on offense, defense wins championships. Why did Dubas get defensive specialists when we need more firepower from 3 lines?
 
How are we fixing the power play?  It seems extremely unlikely this will happen, but I would have tried taking Marner off the first unit at some point in the regular season and sticking Nylander in his spot. Marner?s the guy who always has the puck. Maybe he is the problem.

Any Defenseman
Nylander - Tavares - Matthews
Simmonds

Makes the guy with the puck a shooting threat.  Gotta try something new.
 
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