Babcock will be back next season
- Thread starter CarltonTheBear
- Start date
Strangelove
New member
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Those points actually serve as an indictment of Babcock's inflexibility rather than the other way around.
Komarov was one of the absolute worst forwards in the league for the entire year. He should have been healthy scratched for months before the playoffs started. Instead I recall Babcock starting Komarov with Matthews in game 2 or 3. And then when that didn't work (obviously), he played Matthews with Hyman and Brown (!!) of all people. And then was shocked when that didn't work either.
Babcock chronically misuses his skilled players and plays favourites with his chosen veterans. There is no reason to believe that he'll change now, whether or not he pays lip-service to being willing to "compromise".
Strangelove
New member
herman said:Also the fanbase complaint about Matthews' usage in the playoffs was interesting.
https://www.thepointhockey.com/did-auston-matthews-lack-of-ice-time-have-more-to-do-with-the-player-than-the-coach/
If Matthews takes shorter shifts, he should be given more shifts.
Strangelove said:
I'm trying to wrap my head around this one... Babcock putting Martin in the pressbox and drastically cutting Komarov's minutes in the 2nd half of last season is actually proof that he's inflexible with the line-up? Can you show your math on that?
Ice time charts from last season vs. this season:
17/18 we saw clear instances where Babcock took two veteran players he was obviously fond of and either eliminated or drastically reduced their roles in favour of young talented players in Marner and Kapanen.
That offseason, two pretty common complaints about Babcock's usage was that the star players didn't play enough and that Matthews wasn't on the top PP unit. How did Babcock respond in 18/19? He put Matthews on PP1, he increased Marner's role on the speciality teams by giving him PK minutes, and he started playing 3 forwards over the 18:30 mark when in 17/18 he had zero.
Along with that, he took two more players who were clearly favourites of his (Marleau and Brown) and reduced their minutes both from their 17/18 averages and kept dropping them as the season went along. Marleau had the 3rd highest ice-time among forwards in 17/18. In 18/19 he was ranked 6th overall and from March 1st to the end of the season he dropped to 9th.
There are some very real issues with Babcock's coaching, but if you're out here saying that he's literally incapable of changing and adapting then you're talking out of your behind.
17/18 we saw clear instances where Babcock took two veteran players he was obviously fond of and either eliminated or drastically reduced their roles in favour of young talented players in Marner and Kapanen.
That offseason, two pretty common complaints about Babcock's usage was that the star players didn't play enough and that Matthews wasn't on the top PP unit. How did Babcock respond in 18/19? He put Matthews on PP1, he increased Marner's role on the speciality teams by giving him PK minutes, and he started playing 3 forwards over the 18:30 mark when in 17/18 he had zero.
Along with that, he took two more players who were clearly favourites of his (Marleau and Brown) and reduced their minutes both from their 17/18 averages and kept dropping them as the season went along. Marleau had the 3rd highest ice-time among forwards in 17/18. In 18/19 he was ranked 6th overall and from March 1st to the end of the season he dropped to 9th.
There are some very real issues with Babcock's coaching, but if you're out here saying that he's literally incapable of changing and adapting then you're talking out of your behind.
mr grieves
New member
CarltonTheBear said:
I think the argument isn't the straw man (that Babcock is inflexible) but that he's slow to make changes and adapt -- that he's stubborn. This isn't a controversial view.
Guilt Trip
Active member
The complaint was that because of the circumstances, game 6 and 7 were elimination games, Matthews, JT and Marner should have played even more. That's this issue I see almost all people have with Babs and the ice time. He also doesn't play his power play enough. Love him or not Cherry was right in his assessment. The first PP unit had too much pressure to produce. It wasn't a 2 minute pp for them, it was basically a regular shift. You have to give them time to set up and try to generate. This 50 seconds and off crap was terrible.herman said:
Game 7...Hyman, you know the guy with the knee problems, played almost 2 mins more then Matthews at EV. That's unacceptable to me.
The 4th line seeing ice in the 3rd period in game 7 with the Goat as centre was a huge mistake. Not dbl shifting Matthews or JT in his spot, huge mistake. Not playing Willy with Matthews here and there, huge mistake. Not dumping Brown and Marleau to the 4th line, huge mistake. Playing Gardiner/Dermott instead of a healthy Rosen, huge mistake.
Putting the 4th line out after scoring a goal or having one against for most of the year but especially in game 6, huge mistake. All I can say is he better adjust because if this crap happens next year, he'll be gone.
mr grieves said:
I don't think that is the argument because a number of people, not just here but on social media and people I talk to in real life, wholeheartedly believe that nothing is going to change next season when we've already been through one offseason where Babcock committed to making a number of changes to his coaching habits.
Guilt Trip
Active member
I would agree with this. I hope he can and will adapt. He's not a dumbass and I'm betting there were some energetic discussions between him and Dubas the last few weeks.CarltonTheBear said:
Guilt Trip said:
I'd also add that it wouldn't surprise me if a number of the standard Babcock related complaints are things that the organization/Dubas believe in as well. Like I could see the sports science department being behind the idea that 18-20 minutes is the ideal time for a forward in a hockey game, or that you shouldn't play a PP for over a minute. When Dubas said that there are things the organization can do to adapt and evolve maybe he meant not leaning on things like that so heavily. Just a hypothesis.
herman
Well-known member
Guilt Trip said:
Are there things Babcock could do better? Yup. Is that wall of text up there all huge mistakes? Ehhhh
I get why people think playing more is better, but longer/more shifts quickly turns counter productive at a certain point, like right after 40 seconds. Fresh good players beat tired excellent players pretty much all the time. The margins are that thin. This same strategy of 'huge mistakes' put us on the cusp of winning the series.
What did the Leafs in was their collective inability to shrug off the emotions of bad calls and bad goals and keep playing their game. The massive structural changes people are requesting when the series is on the line are counter productive at that juncture when doing something pretty different is more likely to go the wrong way.
With a more mature team, what I'd like Babcock to do is build in those crunch time deployments and options into their regular season more, as they shouldn't need to worry about raise their baseline of play as much anymore and can focus on refining that extra 1-2%.
mr grieves
New member
herman said:
Maybe?
But on the first, which is the most objectionable and where he is the most stubborn (to the point that we were likely saved from a Rielly-Hainsey shutdown pair this postseason by two major injuries).... the folks who care most about sample size have, generally, been the earliest to get on Babcock about his worst usage habits. For example, they thought a sample size of the previous season showed Marleau in decline, and it continued throughout this season. Awfully big sample, that. And yet, no one was in a position to succeed on the third-line wing? I dunno.
hockeyfan1
New member
I?m certain Babs has learned some lessons from the post-season elimination. Don?t think he will change his coaching style but will probably be more flexible and adaptive.
People may not change character-wise retaining both their flaws and pluses, but when one has gone through a bit of a shake, the human mind realizes what it needs to do more positively and less negatively. This is where Babcock?s transitioning comes in to be better.
Expectations next post-season will be enormously high. Don?t think there will be any excuses for an early exit based on a coach?s inflexibility.
People may not change character-wise retaining both their flaws and pluses, but when one has gone through a bit of a shake, the human mind realizes what it needs to do more positively and less negatively. This is where Babcock?s transitioning comes in to be better.
Expectations next post-season will be enormously high. Don?t think there will be any excuses for an early exit based on a coach?s inflexibility.
OldTimeHockey
Active member
Do we really think the team's early exit was the fault of Babcock's inflexibility? Do we not think it had more to do with Kadri getting suspended, again? Nylander being a shell of himself. Gardiner playing injured? Hyman playing injured and needing surgery? This YOUNG team went to game 7 with the Bruins, who are now going into the Conference final and there's also a good chance they go to the Cup finals too.
As Herman points out above, Babcock definitely made some errors, but he is not the sole reason the team lost that series.
For years Leaf fans have been preaching "patience, patience, patience" yet when the team loses those same Leaf fans scream "Why not us! This was our year! Fire the coach!"
As Herman points out above, Babcock definitely made some errors, but he is not the sole reason the team lost that series.
For years Leaf fans have been preaching "patience, patience, patience" yet when the team loses those same Leaf fans scream "Why not us! This was our year! Fire the coach!"
Bill_Berg
Active member
Babcock may not be perfect, but the Bruins are a top team. Sucks we got them in round one, but if the playoff format was different and we beat a weaker team before losing to Boston in seven, would people still be wanting to fire Babcock? It's possible that the Toronto/Boston series will be /would have been the toughest series for either team all playoffs long. It's not a video where it gets progressively harder each round. Again, first round exits suck cause you want to see them win and keep playing, but it's not the same as it was years ago.