Captain Phaneuf

[cw]

Is Phaneuf overpaid? Yep. Super badly? Not in my opinion. Not for a dman who was 12th in league scoring for dmen while playing on a bad team last year.

Does his league worst -8 make him the worst dman in the league defensively? Nope. It's not a great stat in that it doesn't show how Scrivens/Reimer soft/stoppable goals impacted that number nor how the big Rangers forwards dominated his club last night - for example. Nor does it consider how his team is still a work in progress trying to adapt to and learn Carlyle's new system (which can take 1/2 a season). Dion isn't that great defensively but he's not terrible either in my opinion.

I'm not nuts about Dion but he's well down my list on what ails this team in terms of his ability to play because he's one of the best dmen this team has. He's played some of his best two-way hockey as a Leaf recently in my opinion (prior to the last couple of games).

Is he tradeable? I think so - probably fairly easily if you don't expect a fantastic return. He'd probably be second pairing in the worst case on another club.

Before going crazy dumping players, I'd like to see 5-15 more games to assess what we have and who will play well under Carlyle.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Criticisms of Phaneuf are legion but everything is exacerbated by his wearing the C. His icetime could be reduced, he could be demoted go second pairing and there would be little controversy.

I think there'd be some controversy on this team, perhaps not so much on another. I can't think of any Leaf that could supplant him as a top pairing d-man. At his best, Gunnarsson has shown that he can be a complementary piece on a top line, but he's certainly not a game-changer.

Speaking of which, I think Gunnarsson and Phaneuf should be reunited as the top pairing.

 

[bustaheims]

Not to mention that he has displayed no discernible leadership qualities.

I would guess most team captains don't display discernible leadership qualities since most of it probably occurs behind team doors.  On the ice?  I don't know what is expected or what constitutes 'leadership' on the ice, is the fact he's among the most vocal on the ice with his teammates a sign of leadership or just normal?  I don't know, I think it's pretty subjective.  I would consider Sundin to have been a great captain, but I know he was criticized for a long time about his 'leadership'.

I agree. We really don't know what kind of leadership qualities Phaneuf really possesses, because none of us are really privy to the situations where it comes into play. We're not in the dressing room. We don't hear the chatter on the bench or on the ice. We can't say for sure how the rest of the players on the team view him. Sure, his leadership hasn't produced results, but, how much that is his fault and how much of the blame lies in the talent surrounding him or the rest of the leadership structure (and that includes the front office and the coaching staff)? Whether or not he should be captain is certainly open to debate, but, truthfully, we have no idea which players on this roster  are the real leaders and who are not. What we see is really only a fraction of what being part of the team consists of.

 

[cw]

Not to mention that he has displayed no discernible leadership qualities.

I would guess most team captains don't display discernible leadership qualities since most of it probably occurs behind team doors.  On the ice?  I don't know what is expected or what constitutes 'leadership' on the ice, is the fact he's among the most vocal on the ice with his teammates a sign of leadership or just normal?  I don't know, I think it's pretty subjective.  I would consider Sundin to have been a great captain, but I know he was criticized for a long time about his 'leadership'.

I agree. We really don't know what kind of leadership qualities Phaneuf really possesses, because none of us are really privy to the situations where it comes into play. We're not in the dressing room. We don't hear the chatter on the bench or on the ice. We can't say for sure how the rest of the players on the team view him. Sure, his leadership hasn't produced results, but, how much that is his fault and how much of the blame lies in the talent surrounding him or the rest of the leadership structure (and that includes the front office and the coaching staff)? Whether or not he should be captain is certainly open to debate, but, truthfully, we have no idea which players on this roster  are the real leaders and who are not. What we see is really only a fraction of what being part of the team consists of.

+1

Concern about his leadership is even further down my list of concerns for this team.

If you have to have a letter before you can lead a hockey club, you're not much of a leader in my opinion. Before being too critical of Phaneuf's leadership, let someone else step up and lead on the ice. I tend to think leadership issues are a little overblown in the media.

 

[PG]

..,,,,,,he's one of the best dmen this team has.

Is that really saying much though?

That's like arguing about who has been the team's best PKer in each of the last 3 seasons.

Being the best of a decidedly awful group is not really impressive IMO.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

..,,,,,,he's one of the best dmen this team has.

Is that really saying much though?

That's like arguing about who has been the team's best PKer in each of the last 3 seasons.

Being the best of a decidedly awful group is not really impressive IMO.

Based on advanced metrics Phaneuf comes out looking good, not just in the context of the Leafs team either.

A couple links discussing him:
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/7/2/dissenting-thoughts-torontos-top-4-is-set
http://canucksarmy.com/2012/7/24/dion-phaneuf-and-jake-gardiner-comparing-matchups
http://theleafsnation.com/2012/4/5/leading-by-example-dion-phaneuf

Obviously it's not the be all, end all, but I think he comes out pretty good.  He's consistently got the toughest matchups since arriving in Toronto and he's performed pretty well in the circumstances, especially in the fact that his offensive production didn't fall off the face of the earth facing tougher comps.

 

[maplesyrup]

Put Phaneuf on a more talented team and he's be a stud I think.

 

[ZBBM]

Put Phaneuf on a more talented team and he's be a stud I think.

Or on a second pairing, which is where he belongs.

By discernible leadership qualities I mean exactly that -- nothing that the average fan can see on the ice. He doesn't make his partner play better, as one possible example. He may be General Patton revisited in the dressing room for all I know.

Phaneuf has value, and if I were Nonis I wouldn't hesitate to trade him for a decent return. He's not a guy you are going to build a successful defense around. Too many problems on both ends of the ice. If you aren't going to trade him then acquire a true stud and position Phaneuf as a complementary piece.

 

[Jay-Mar]

Every year that Phaneuf has been here stories have always come out about how much he helps the young guys come along. This year Reilly was quoted about how much he helped him in scrimmages and what not. The other year, Im not sure who it was, they went to P.E.I. to train with him.

 

[sneakyray]

Every year that Phaneuf has been here stories have always come out about how much he helps the young guys come along. This year Reilly was quoted about how much he helped him in scrimmages and what not. The other year, Im not sure who it was, they went to P.E.I. to train with him.

it was some guy named kadri

 

[PG]

Put Phaneuf on a more talented team and he's be a stud I think.

Or on a second pairing, which is where he belongs.

By discernible leadership qualities I mean exactly that -- nothing that the average fan can see on the ice. He doesn't make his partner play better, as one possible example. He may be General Patton revisited in the dressing room for all I know.

Phaneuf has value, and if I were Nonis I wouldn't hesitate to trade him for a decent return. He's not a guy you are going to build a successful defense around. Too many problems on both ends of the ice. If you aren't going to trade him then acquire a true stud and position Phaneuf as a complementary piece.

Those are my feelings as well.

To be clear, I don't think he's awful. He's a polarizing guy like McCabe. Some Leaf fans think he is indeed a stud and awesome, whereas some think he's the worst d-man on the team. Like McCabe, I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

Some nights he will play incredible but some nights he will be one of the main contributors to a loss (too often for my taste).

Like cw said, he's far down the list of "problems" with the Leafs. But I certainly don't believe he's part of any solution.

 

[Hampreacher]

On Phaneuf. He is playing always against the top lines and playing too many minutes. Neither Phaneuf nor Reimer can be blamed for last night.  Leafs need a number one center and more offense. Reduce Phaneufs ice time by trusting second unit more and then the first line defence can be more effective laster in the game and in key situations.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Or on a second pairing, which is where he belongs.

Based on what?  I think he's clearly a top 60 d-man in the league.

He doesn't make his partner play better, as one possible example.

I would argue he contributed to Gunnarsson moving from a 3rd pairing guy to a 1st pairing, and I would also argue he made Keith Aulie look better than he was/is.

 

[Bonsixx]

Phaneuf is a guy who, if you put him on Detroit, he's suddenly amazing. I think Leaf fans give him too hard of a time. No, he isn't perfect, and it would certainly be helpful if our main power-play cannon could hit the net consistently, but for the minutes he plays and the opposition he plays against, he's pretty solid.

He's by far the best defenceman on the Leafs right now. By FAR.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

No, he isn't perfect, and it would certainly be helpful if our main power-play cannon could hit the net consistently

I looked this up on NHL.com and it doesn't appear he misses the net any more regularly than any of the other d-men in the league who take a lot of shots:  http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20122ALLDADALL&sort=missedShots&viewName=rtssPlayerStats

 

[Bonsixx]

No, he isn't perfect, and it would certainly be helpful if our main power-play cannon could hit the net consistently

I looked this up on NHL.com and it doesn't appear he misses the net any more regularly than any of the other d-men in the league who take a lot of shots:  http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20122ALLDADALL&sort=missedShots&viewName=rtssPlayerStats

Yeah, must be akin to the whole "Kaberle doesn't shoot" thing. Just seems like the dude can't hit the broad side of a barn for some reason.

 

[cw]

..,,,,,,he's one of the best dmen this team has.

Is that really saying much though?

That's like arguing about who has been the team's best PKer in each of the last 3 seasons.

Being the best of a decidedly awful group is not really impressive IMO.

Maybe not. But if they're going to improve this team, getting rid of their best or one of their best isn't where I'd start (assuming a rebuild isn't an option for Nonis).

Now if someone wants to trade the Leafs a Norris candidate for Phaneuf, I'm all ears. But realistically, I don't think that's something we can reasonably expect.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

..,,,,,,he's one of the best dmen this team has.

Is that really saying much though?

That's like arguing about who has been the team's best PKer in each of the last 3 seasons.

Being the best of a decidedly awful group is not really impressive IMO.

Maybe not. But if they're going to improve this team, getting rid of their best or one of their best isn't where I'd start (assuming a rebuild isn't an option for Nonis).

Now if someone wants to trade the Leafs a Norris candidate for Phaneuf, I'm all ears. But realistically, I don't think that's something we can reasonably expect.

Fan590 being ridiculous: http://theleafsnation.com/2013/1/27/should-the-leafs-buy-out-dion-phaneuf-this-summer

And that link makes a very strong case for Phaneuf, too.  I respect Cam Charron's opinion as well.

 

[cw]

..,,,,,,he's one of the best dmen this team has.

Is that really saying much though?

That's like arguing about who has been the team's best PKer in each of the last 3 seasons.

Being the best of a decidedly awful group is not really impressive IMO.

Maybe not. But if they're going to improve this team, getting rid of their best or one of their best isn't where I'd start (assuming a rebuild isn't an option for Nonis).

Now if someone wants to trade the Leafs a Norris candidate for Phaneuf, I'm all ears. But realistically, I don't think that's something we can reasonably expect.

Fan590 being ridiculous: http://theleafsnation.com/2013/1/27/should-the-leafs-buy-out-dion-phaneuf-this-summer

And that link makes a very strong case for Phaneuf, too.  I respect Cam Charron's opinion as well.

The other thing Phaneuf has been doing quite a bit this season is playing the left hand side with Kostka. So he's been making that adjustment while his shot is tougher to get through.

 

[Rebel_1812]

Phaneuf is a guy who, if you put him on Detroit, he's suddenly amazing. I think Leaf fans give him too hard of a time. No, he isn't perfect, and it would certainly be helpful if our main power-play cannon could hit the net consistently, but for the minutes he plays and the opposition he plays against, he's pretty solid.

He's by far the best defenceman on the Leafs right now. By FAR.

That is exactly what happened with Ian White.