Carlyle fired

[CarltonTheBear]

Well, let me try just so as to make it seem like I'm not a crazy person. Here are the second best forwards on post-04-05 lockout teams to win the cup(I'm going with a general feel/qualitative evaluation as opposed to just "highest scoring")

...

Where does Kessel rank on that list? The middle of the pack, I think. Below Zetterberg and Malkin I think we can agree, I'd put him below Kane, Getzlaf and maybe Brind'Amour. He's almost certainly ahead of Lucic and the Kings players.

So when I say "not a strength" all I really mean is that in that role I don't think he'd be particularly stronger than what you see on your average cup winner. You know, if Kessel were the team's second best forward right now then to win a cup the team likely still has to go through teams whose second best forwards include guys like Getzlaf(or Perry) or Kane or Malkin or Nash and so on and he's, charitably, a push with those guys. If they were doing one of those old "Who has the edge' features in the Star the way they used to for a playoff series and one of the categories was "2nd best forward" he wouldn't be an easy check mark in any of those cases.

I read all of this though and I think, man, that's pretty good company to be in though. Among his comparables on recent Stanley Cup champions he's only middle of the pack. You're making it sound like Kessel can't be a part of a winning teams core because the Leafs are unlikely to be able to assemble a core that, aside from Kessel, would be comparable to other SC champions. That I can get behind/understand, but that's more of a Leafs-problem than a Kessel-problem.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

After looking at the chart that was posted the other day with the Corsi% of players who were still around from Wilson's last season, I'm almost willing to completely throw out everything we saw from Phaneuf under Carlyle. His numbers took the biggest hit out of anyone still on the team. I really wouldn't surprise me in the least if he saw the biggest rebound.

During the lockout season or last season I would have said the exact same thing. And I do still definitely think a big rebound is possible for Phaneuf. There's just parts of his game this season that I haven't been crazy about, and I'm not sure I can really point to a system to explain them. His skating seems to be getting worse too, which isn't good news for somebody who is just 29.

 

[bustaheims]

During the lockout season or last season I would have said the exact same thing. And I do still definitely think a big rebound is possible for Phaneuf. There's just parts of his game this season that I haven't been crazy about, and I'm not sure I can really point to a system to explain them. His skating seems to be getting worse too, which isn't good news for somebody who is just 29.

Maybe, but I'm really not entirely sure what to think about large swathes of the team right now. I'm basically willing to put an asterisk next to everything we've seen since Carlyle took over, and start off with a basically clean slate for everyone.

 

[Kin]

I read all of this though and I think, man, that's pretty good company to be in though. Among his comparables on recent Stanley Cup champions he's only middle of the pack. You're making it sound like Kessel can't be a part of a winning teams core because the Leafs are unlikely to be able to assemble a core that, aside from Kessel, would be comparable to other SC champions. That I can get behind/understand, but that's more of a Leafs-problem than a Kessel-problem.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I look at the Red Wings team, or the Penguins team or the Blackhawks or Kings or whoever and I look at their threesomes of two best forwards and best defencemen so Crosby/Malkin/Gonchar or Keith/Toews/Kane or Lidstrom/Zetterberg/Datsyuk at some time you actually have to go toe to toe with that and, yeah, Kessel's middle of the pack which acknowledges he's a very good player but I don't think you can be middle of the pack on all three in which case you're asking that hypothetical #1 center to be in that Datsyuk/Toews/Crosby group or the defenseman to be in the Lidstrom/Keith/Chara stratosphere and that's putting an insane amount of pressure on the guys that the Leafs already don't have an easy path towards acquiring.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

McKenzie throwin' down:

@Hope_Smoke

McKenzie "Leafs are not where they are right now bc Kessel/Phaneuf aren't good hockey players. Need to be surrounded by better players"

@Hope_Smoke

McKenzie (Leafs won't reach next step) "Until the Leafs have a C that can be mentioned in any of the top 15 Cs in the NHL"

@Hope_Smoke

McKenzie "Ana, Bos, Col, Det have 2. Edm has RNH & Cgy has an up and coming one in Monahan."

@Hope_Smoke

McKenzie "Even the Panthers are doing well & that's because they have two in Bjugstad and Barkov coming up."

@Hope_Smoke

McKenzie "Montreal is going to get better when Galchenyuk develops more."

‏@Hope_Smoke

McKenzie "Credible contenders in the NHL have a big time centre and most have two of them"

 

[moon111]

I'm going to be really interested seeing how Gardiner does from here on out.

 

[Stickytape]

I'm going to be really interested seeing how Gardiner does from here on out.

^

I wonder how Clarkson will be used, too.

 

[Rebel_1812]

I bet the team performs about the same.  They got a little bit better with Carlye over Wilson, but I don't think they are going to be much better.  There was a very good tweet that said they are an average team just barely over 500.  What do you expect?

 

[Joe S.]

I'm going to be really interested seeing how Gardiner does from here on out.

^

I wonder how Clarkson will be used, too.

If Nonis has any balls, he'll buy him out when that window opens up. Clarkson is as a big of a mistake as Finger.

 

[Joe S.]

I read all of this though and I think, man, that's pretty good company to be in though. Among his comparables on recent Stanley Cup champions he's only middle of the pack. You're making it sound like Kessel can't be a part of a winning teams core because the Leafs are unlikely to be able to assemble a core that, aside from Kessel, would be comparable to other SC champions. That I can get behind/understand, but that's more of a Leafs-problem than a Kessel-problem.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I look at the Red Wings team, or the Penguins team or the Blackhawks or Kings or whoever and I look at their threesomes of two best forwards and best defencemen so Crosby/Malkin/Gonchar or Keith/Toews/Kane or Lidstrom/Zetterberg/Datsyuk at some time you actually have to go toe to toe with that and, yeah, Kessel's middle of the pack which acknowledges he's a very good player but I don't think you can be middle of the pack on all three in which case you're asking that hypothetical #1 center to be in that Datsyuk/Toews/Crosby group or the defenseman to be in the Lidstrom/Keith/Chara stratosphere and that's putting an insane amount of pressure on the guys that the Leafs already don't have an easy path towards acquiring.

This was the same problem during the Sundin years - you needed a 1-2 centre combo and 1 terrific defenceman.

The Leafs had everything on those teams except that. The closest they came was when they had Sundin-Nieuwendyk and Leetch. 

That season still hurts my groin - and the ensuing lockout.

I think the Leafs should maybe find a way to get Eric Stall out of Carolina. The idea of Stall between JVR and Kessel just seems fantastic to me.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

I'm going to be really interested seeing how Gardiner does from here on out.

^

I wonder how Clarkson will be used, too.

If Nonis has any balls, he'll buy him out when that window opens up.  Clarkson is as a big of a mistake as Finger.

Oh, God, how I wish his contract was only a Finger-sized mistake.  It's like arm-sized.

 

[herman]

I'm going to be really interested seeing how Gardiner does from here on out.

^

I wonder how Clarkson will be used, too.

If Nonis has any balls, he'll buy him out when that window opens up.  Clarkson is as a big of a mistake as Finger.

Oh, God, how I wish his contract was only a Finger-sized mistake.  It's like arm-sized.

Heroic Shrimp, I really appreciate your witticism.

 

[bustaheims]

If Nonis has any balls, he'll buy him out when that window opens up. Clarkson is as a big of a mistake as Finger.

I suppose that depends on the direction they take this summer. If they start to strip things down, it's better to just let Clarkson's contract run out as much as possible. If they're hoping to build around what they have . . . well, then, they have to question if having the roster spot is worth having that much dead cap space for so long - the way his contract is structured, a buyout doesn't open up much cap space. These are the cap hits if he gets bought out this summer:

2015-16: $4,716,667
2016-17: $3,716,667
2017-18: $3,716,667
2018-19: $4,716,667
2019-20: $4,716,667
2020-21: $466,667
2021-22: $466,667
2022-23: $466,667
2023-24: $466,667
2024-25: $466,667

 

[sickbeast]

Clarkson is playing much better this year but he still takes a ton of really stupid and useless penalties. His contract still looks really bad even with his improved play. It makes me wonder where they find some of these GMs.

 

[Bullfrog]

Wonder why Kessel doesn't like him?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2014/09/17/leafs_kessel_not_hot_on_spotts_breakout_strategy_feschuk.html

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2013/10/02/maple_leafs_promised_land_could_be_long_way_away_if_kessels_doing_leading_feschuk.html

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2013/06/07/maple_leafs_should_trade_phil_kessel_feschuk.html

Not that I think he's read any of them.

Stick tap to @wyshynski.

I don't think Kessel "doesn't like him".  It's just that some of these articles (Feschuk's) have an inflammatory or exaggerated tone to them, seeming to imply that anything that takes place is always in the negative.  The way the article(s) is/are written that give that impression.

He publicly called him an idiot. He DEFINITELY doesn't like him. There's basically no wiggle room on an opinion of whether or not Kessel likes Feschuk.

 

[Rebel_1812]

McKenzie throwin' down:

@Hope_Smoke

McKenzie "Leafs are not where they are right now bc Kessel/Phaneuf aren't good hockey players. Need to be surrounded by better players"

@Hope_Smoke

McKenzie (Leafs won't reach next step) "Until the Leafs have a C that can be mentioned in any of the top 15 Cs in the NHL"

@Hope_Smoke

McKenzie "Ana, Bos, Col, Det have 2. Edm has RNH & Cgy has an up and coming one in Monahan."

@Hope_Smoke

McKenzie "Even the Panthers are doing well & that's because they have two in Bjugstad and Barkov coming up."

@Hope_Smoke

McKenzie "Montreal is going to get better when Galchenyuk develops more."

‏@Hope_Smoke

McKenzie "Credible contenders in the NHL have a big time centre and most have two of them"

Kadri might develop into one and certainly wants to be paid like one.

 

[ZBBM]

If Nonis has any balls, he'll buy him out when that window opens up. Clarkson is as a big of a mistake as Finger.

I suppose that depends on the direction they take this summer. If they start to strip things down, it's better to just let Clarkson's contract run out as much as possible. If they're hoping to build around what they have . . . well, then, they have to question if having the roster spot is worth having that much dead cap space for so long - the way his contract is structured, a buyout doesn't open up much cap space. These are the cap hits if he gets bought out this summer:

2015-16: $4,716,667
2016-17: $3,716,667
2017-18: $3,716,667
2018-19: $4,716,667
2019-20: $4,716,667
2020-21: $466,667
2021-22: $466,667
2022-23: $466,667
2023-24: $466,667
2024-25: $466,667

I would never buy out his contract this soon.  But I would put him on the 4th line and never let him near a PP again.

BTW, this alone should have gotten Nonis fired today alongside of Carlyle. 

 

[ZBBM]

BTW, this alone should have gotten Nonis fired today alongside of Carlyle.

That, and this:

?Randy deserved to come back,? Nonis said Tuesday, defending the decision, which saw Greg Cronin, Scott Gordon and Dave Farrish fired. ?He had done enough to come back. We?d seen him do good things. We saw him do some good things this season. It?s not that he?s not capable. I think he?s a very capable coach. I think he?s an excellent coach. You don?t coach over 700 games without being good at it. Good coaches get let go and unfortunately today we had to do that.?

Physician, heal thyself.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

These are the cap hits if he gets bought out this summer:

2015-16: $4,716,667
2016-17: $3,716,667
2017-18: $3,716,667
2018-19: $4,716,667
2019-20: $4,716,667
2020-21: $466,667
2021-22: $466,667
2022-23: $466,667
2023-24: $466,667
2024-25: $466,667

Thanks Loiselle. If Clarkson's going to go the only way to do it would be by eating $2-3mil in a trade. That would be a better option than the buyout. Might even find a taker at that price.

 

[freer]

my big laugh for the day?  Phaneuf: "We feel responsible for this (Carlyle firing)"

Ya think?!

I guess it is in how he said it, was he remorseful!