Coach Mike Babcock
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Guilt Trip
Active member
If the Leafs get smoked by Vegas, I think he's done. They can't afford to keep throwing points away waiting to see if Babs can turn this around.Zee said:
Redleaf
Active member
I know this will come off as being controversial but are the Leaf players in protest, (intentionally playing with no effort or compete in recent games) trying to get Babcock fired? Is this a form of mutiny?
Personally, I doubt any player would intentionally play poorly in order to oust their coach, but stranger things have happened.
Personally, I doubt any player would intentionally play poorly in order to oust their coach, but stranger things have happened.
Guru Tugginmypuddah
Active member
RedLeaf said:
If we're sitting here, armchair coaching, and scratching our heads, how do you think the players feel?
Can someone please point me to a time or era where leafs fans were satisfied with their coach?
My fandom started in 89 in the Doug Carpenter and online during the Quinn years. Every.single.coach has been skewered in talk shows, articles, round tables and forums since then.
I can?t think of a single time when anyone sat back and said ?wow, what a great coach this team has?
Even Pat Burns, I remember as soon as the team slipped a little ?the team has tuned the coach out?. And what does he do? He just continues winning everywhere he went.
I?m not defending nor criticizing Babcock, I?m just tired of this constant Ferris wheel of coaches that come to the leafs that are perceived as incompetent but somehow all these coaches that aren?t here are brilliant tacticians.
My fandom started in 89 in the Doug Carpenter and online during the Quinn years. Every.single.coach has been skewered in talk shows, articles, round tables and forums since then.
I can?t think of a single time when anyone sat back and said ?wow, what a great coach this team has?
Even Pat Burns, I remember as soon as the team slipped a little ?the team has tuned the coach out?. And what does he do? He just continues winning everywhere he went.
I?m not defending nor criticizing Babcock, I?m just tired of this constant Ferris wheel of coaches that come to the leafs that are perceived as incompetent but somehow all these coaches that aren?t here are brilliant tacticians.
Arn
Active member
To a large extent I agree Joe. It's the easy thing to blame a coach as it's easy to target one individual rather than the players. Indeed, more so in soccer, even the board room seems to do the same. Team in danger of relegation/not making the playoffs, fire the coach.
I think Babcock was the right guy to bring in when we did. I think he's in the main done a pretty good job. I do, however, think there's a debate to be had about whether he is the guy who can take the team to the next level.
He's probably built up enough credit to be allowed the rest of this season, but any hint of failure I think that's him done at that point. Any signs of catastrophic failure (falling well out of the playiff race for example) prior to that I can see him not making it out of the year.
I think Babcock was the right guy to bring in when we did. I think he's in the main done a pretty good job. I do, however, think there's a debate to be had about whether he is the guy who can take the team to the next level.
He's probably built up enough credit to be allowed the rest of this season, but any hint of failure I think that's him done at that point. Any signs of catastrophic failure (falling well out of the playiff race for example) prior to that I can see him not making it out of the year.
Zee
Active member
Joe S. said:
Pat Burns and Pat Quinn were the 2 coaches that most fans were satisfied with, while the team was winning of course. It's the nature of the sport, no coach has a lifetime run with a team, they can get stale especially when the same core is around them for many years. Sometimes the message gets lost, or just isn't as impactful as it was before. Now more than ever you can't just turn over a team because of the salary cap, so if you're invested in players you have to change something else - which usually means the coach.
L K
Active member
Joe S. said:
I mean there certainly is always a tendency to go all 'the grass is greener' with coaching but I don't think the criticism is necessarily about Babcock being a bad coach but whether his approach just isn't working with this specific group. They invested a lot of money in Babcock when they signed him but they also just invested far more money in the core of the team.
Peter D.
Moderator
L K said:
Babcock has his warts, but I don't necessarily think he is the issue here. And with so much being invested in the core of the team, I don't know why the GM is getting a complete free pass here then.
At this point I don't care if they fire Babcock or not. I'd rather they not, but a part of me also wants to see Keefe in just to see what he can do and so we can stop hearing about it. I'm not completely sold on the notion.
Zee
Active member
Peter D. said:
It's the players that shouldn't be getting a free pass here. They're not playing well, and we believe they're more talented than they've shown, so what does that mean? They don't like the coach and so aren't giving their all for him? These guys are millionaires and it shouldn't matter, they should have enough pride to go out and perform. If we're wrong, and the players aren't as good as we believe they are, well then it's on management that assembled this team, but I don't think that's the case right now.
We'll eventually see this team with another coach, whether that happens in a week, a month or next season who knows, but until then we have no concrete answers as to what the hell the issue is.
Joe S. said:
We thought the same of Paul McFarland and now he's here and the results have cratered.
I don't know, I mean sometimes things point to tactics and others not. The numbers and style the Leafs are playing this year back up that they're getting away from being an offense first team in an attempt to shore up other areas and it's just blown up in their faces. It's probably partially on personnel but to what degree? I don't think the collection of players they have is bad. Not every coach elsewhere is a brilliant tactician either though.
Zee
Active member
Michael said:
That's just so crappy. I mean I don't think it's intentional, these guys should have enough pride in their play that they go out and play hard, but maybe they just won't give it that extra "something" for the coach. I equate it to working for a crappy manager in your office, you still do your work, but you're not putting in the extra mile. Maybe once they get a coach in there that they relate to better they'll loosen up and play better, we've seen it happen with other teams. Anyway that's my hope, if they can't turn it around regardless of the coach than my deepest fear is realized and we've screwed the rebuild.
Kin
New member
Zee said:
I think statements like this though miss the diference between actual constructive analysis and just fan ranting. So the players are partially "to blame"? Ok, now I'm mad at the players. BOOOOOO! YOU SUCK PLAYERS! Now what? What does that mean in an actionable sense? They can't fire players with contracts. Should they trade them? For who? If we're of the opinion that our players are overpaid bums, are they even valuable trade pieces?
I don't know if replacing Babcock or Dubas would help, nobody does, but those are at least specific and controllable actions being advocated. Players get "free passes" because "blaming" the players does nothing and isn't even pretending to be an actual route towards remedying the situation.
hockeyfan1
New member
We all know the Leafs can be an offensive juggernaut, but at the moment they?re playing a passive risk-averse type of game.
It?s as if Rielly (for example) seems confused and unsure of just what move he needs to make for the moment in-play, rather than to do what would comes naturally or instinctively to him at that point in play. Having Ceci as his defensive partner didn?t help at all in fact it made it worse.
It seems at the expense of attempting to learn a new strategic system, the team is playing the kind of style that is an anethema to it?s very essence of success. Why Babcock is unable to communicate this system more effectively speaks directly to the fact that he breeds not more organization but more confusion, to the point where the players have lost nearly all sense of confidence in every area of the team (including the coach).
Matthews & Nylander appear to be in a world unto themselves. The rest of the team isn?t following suit. Injuries are excuseable but only up to a point, up to a limit. If this team is so delicate that one player injured on a line means the whole thing is over for that line or for the team for that matter, then the Leafs depth is simply not good enough at times like these.
This team has become sickeningly predictable. Something has got to be done, soon too before it becomes too late to salvage the season.
FWIW Hayley Wickenheiser mentioned something along these lines in an article in The Athletic, about all highly skilled great players who do not think when playing the game but rather go by instinct or intuitively know what they need to do to either make a play or score a goal.
She went on to say that when a player thinks too much that?s when things begin to unravel, instead of letting your natural talents & skills shine on their own without any mental impedance ? staying mentally focused and at the same time making the correct play(s) for a positive end result.
There are times when a situation requires a critical move and no time for error. This example can be applied to anything such as a medical emergency or in a game situation.
The Leafs problems are that they?ve built up so much tension & pressure on themselves in a quest to do the right thing and adapt. Or, to read the play better and react. Either way it isn?t working right,
It?s as if Rielly (for example) seems confused and unsure of just what move he needs to make for the moment in-play, rather than to do what would comes naturally or instinctively to him at that point in play. Having Ceci as his defensive partner didn?t help at all in fact it made it worse.
It seems at the expense of attempting to learn a new strategic system, the team is playing the kind of style that is an anethema to it?s very essence of success. Why Babcock is unable to communicate this system more effectively speaks directly to the fact that he breeds not more organization but more confusion, to the point where the players have lost nearly all sense of confidence in every area of the team (including the coach).
Matthews & Nylander appear to be in a world unto themselves. The rest of the team isn?t following suit. Injuries are excuseable but only up to a point, up to a limit. If this team is so delicate that one player injured on a line means the whole thing is over for that line or for the team for that matter, then the Leafs depth is simply not good enough at times like these.
This team has become sickeningly predictable. Something has got to be done, soon too before it becomes too late to salvage the season.
FWIW Hayley Wickenheiser mentioned something along these lines in an article in The Athletic, about all highly skilled great players who do not think when playing the game but rather go by instinct or intuitively know what they need to do to either make a play or score a goal.
She went on to say that when a player thinks too much that?s when things begin to unravel, instead of letting your natural talents & skills shine on their own without any mental impedance ? staying mentally focused and at the same time making the correct play(s) for a positive end result.
There are times when a situation requires a critical move and no time for error. This example can be applied to anything such as a medical emergency or in a game situation.
The Leafs problems are that they?ve built up so much tension & pressure on themselves in a quest to do the right thing and adapt. Or, to read the play better and react. Either way it isn?t working right,
Frank E
Active member
Nik Bethune said:
Dubas can trade players. It's a route, but it's usually the coach that is the first casualty because trading players is a lot harder, and can really blow up in your face if you don't get a proper return and immediate improvement.
Coach gets fired first, then the players get traded, then the GM gets fired.
Kin
New member
Frank E said:
I'm going to assume you realize that I don't need to be told this but still "Dubas should trade players" is not a specific criticism or a defined avenue for fixing what's wrong with the team. Which players? Who should they get in return? Is the aim to actually change the make-up of the team or hope that trading players kicks the remaining players in the butt?
herman
Well-known member
I think there are two main issues at play here, to my eye.
1) Thinking, Instead of Doing Defense
New playstyle with the same general system on top of lots of new personnel. They're playing more conservatively with five-man breakouts whenever possible and no longer falling back on the lob outs or stretch pass. That tactic was in place to somewhat shelter a defense group that wasn't as adept at handling the puck. Dubas added more handlers now, so it stands to reason they'd try a bit more finesse moving the puck out. If anything has been good this year, it's this part of their team game and it's fueling their surge in shot attempts for.
The caveat is that with no more punt outs, the onus is on the defenders and the forwards to actually work together sorting out in the defensive zone. Frankly, the forward core has never really been super good at it and while we knew that, the punt outs and Jake Gardiner and stretch pass threats basically papered over that most nights.
What we are seeing lately is our forward and defense groups overthinking on a relatively complex defensive scheme that is hyper aggressive and requires significant coordination between the 5 players. Think of when you first learned to tie your shoes: were you talking yourself through the rabbit going around the tree and into the hole, or whatever until you could internally voice the instructions and then just doing it? They hang the goalie out to dry when 2-3 players are doing their job but that 1 guy misses a cue or they don't communicate enough or he is late to register where he should be and oh look Malkin/Marchand in the slot for a freebie. It's not quite ingrained as muscle memory for the new defenders and sort of a growing process for the offensively inclined forwards.
This is fixable, but one person learning it is not the same as 13 people learning it together. You'll note that the ones having a modicum of success with this are Dermott/Sandin-Holl + Gauthier/Moore. These are players that have been living in it for years with the Marlies already.
2) Hakstol's Ode to Point Shots
Exacerbating the defensive issues is the apparent death of our offensive talent, particularly with xG results.
2018-19 vs 2019-2020
It's largely the same personnel up front, and I'm not convinced they've all forgotten how to get to the slot. Our only successful line (Matthews/Nylander) is actually still getting there and doing pretty solid damage. Tavares-Marner, for the brief period of time that they were available together, were dismal. With hockey-viz's With Or Without You charts, you can safely trace this back to one line is playing with two 'new' guys with big shots in Muzzin-Barrie and they're firing potshots from the far corners of the OZ instead of what our defensemen had been doing these past three seasons: bumping the puck back down to the forwards. We run a lot of low-high plays, which we've always done, to recycle the attack and reshape the defense for new lanes, but now when the puck goes high, it's fired into the crest or off a high block and into an odd-man rush the other way.
I have long extolled the virtues of forgoing point shots; they're only useful for keeping defensive structures more open vertically, but really need to be supported with forwards crossing sightlines through the slot and point shooters walking the line to the middle. Perhaps Barrie and Muzzin are forced to take 'bailout' point shots because the forwards aren't really offering anything when they move the puck up and stay too static to provide decent options. Tavares has only one shot from the slot this season and it came against the Penguins on a turnover. That is no bueno.
This is fixable because they've clearly done it before. I'm sure Babcock still remembers the instructions for how to bump the puck down low to restart your attack cycle. I think he's just playing out Hak's new ideas a bit, but it's clearly not working and there's no shame in failing fast and doing something better.
1) Thinking, Instead of Doing Defense
New playstyle with the same general system on top of lots of new personnel. They're playing more conservatively with five-man breakouts whenever possible and no longer falling back on the lob outs or stretch pass. That tactic was in place to somewhat shelter a defense group that wasn't as adept at handling the puck. Dubas added more handlers now, so it stands to reason they'd try a bit more finesse moving the puck out. If anything has been good this year, it's this part of their team game and it's fueling their surge in shot attempts for.
The caveat is that with no more punt outs, the onus is on the defenders and the forwards to actually work together sorting out in the defensive zone. Frankly, the forward core has never really been super good at it and while we knew that, the punt outs and Jake Gardiner and stretch pass threats basically papered over that most nights.
What we are seeing lately is our forward and defense groups overthinking on a relatively complex defensive scheme that is hyper aggressive and requires significant coordination between the 5 players. Think of when you first learned to tie your shoes: were you talking yourself through the rabbit going around the tree and into the hole, or whatever until you could internally voice the instructions and then just doing it? They hang the goalie out to dry when 2-3 players are doing their job but that 1 guy misses a cue or they don't communicate enough or he is late to register where he should be and oh look Malkin/Marchand in the slot for a freebie. It's not quite ingrained as muscle memory for the new defenders and sort of a growing process for the offensively inclined forwards.
This is fixable, but one person learning it is not the same as 13 people learning it together. You'll note that the ones having a modicum of success with this are Dermott/Sandin-Holl + Gauthier/Moore. These are players that have been living in it for years with the Marlies already.
2) Hakstol's Ode to Point Shots
Exacerbating the defensive issues is the apparent death of our offensive talent, particularly with xG results.
2018-19 vs 2019-2020
It's largely the same personnel up front, and I'm not convinced they've all forgotten how to get to the slot. Our only successful line (Matthews/Nylander) is actually still getting there and doing pretty solid damage. Tavares-Marner, for the brief period of time that they were available together, were dismal. With hockey-viz's With Or Without You charts, you can safely trace this back to one line is playing with two 'new' guys with big shots in Muzzin-Barrie and they're firing potshots from the far corners of the OZ instead of what our defensemen had been doing these past three seasons: bumping the puck back down to the forwards. We run a lot of low-high plays, which we've always done, to recycle the attack and reshape the defense for new lanes, but now when the puck goes high, it's fired into the crest or off a high block and into an odd-man rush the other way.
I have long extolled the virtues of forgoing point shots; they're only useful for keeping defensive structures more open vertically, but really need to be supported with forwards crossing sightlines through the slot and point shooters walking the line to the middle. Perhaps Barrie and Muzzin are forced to take 'bailout' point shots because the forwards aren't really offering anything when they move the puck up and stay too static to provide decent options. Tavares has only one shot from the slot this season and it came against the Penguins on a turnover. That is no bueno.
This is fixable because they've clearly done it before. I'm sure Babcock still remembers the instructions for how to bump the puck down low to restart your attack cycle. I think he's just playing out Hak's new ideas a bit, but it's clearly not working and there's no shame in failing fast and doing something better.