Colorado granted permission to talk to Dubas

[CarltonTheBear]

I didn't realize that Dubas' contract was up on June 30th. That makes things more interesting. Why would the Leafs revoke their permission for him to talk to other teams then? I can only come up with 2 possibilities: 1) Toronto gave him a contract extension. I'm not entirely sure why Dubas would take it though, unless he feels that Colorado wasn't offering him enough of a promotion and he wanted to wait another season for something better to come up. It's not entirely clear what they were after Dubas for since Sakic is still technically the GM. Or 2) the Leafs just want to hang onto Kyle until after the draft and they'll let him go after that.

Either way, I really can't see a situation where Dubas ends up staying with the team long-term.

 

[Peter D.]

I didn't realize that Dubas' contract was up on June 30th. That makes things more interesting. Why would the Leafs revoke their permission for him to talk to other teams then? I can only come up with 2 possibilities: 1) Toronto gave him a contract extension. I'm not entirely sure why Dubas would take it though, unless he feels that Colorado wasn't offering him enough of a promotion and he wanted to wait another season for something better to come up. It's not entirely clear what they were after Dubas for since Sakic is still technically the GM. Or 2) the Leafs just want to hang onto Kyle until after the draft and they'll let him go after that.

Friedman reported that the Leafs gave him an extension.

Either way, I really can't see a situation where Dubas ends up staying with the team long-term.

I'm still trying to figure out what is going on here considering he was the Golden Child.

 

[Frank E]

I didn't realize that Dubas' contract was up on June 30th. That makes things more interesting. Why would the Leafs revoke their permission for him to talk to other teams then? I can only come up with 2 possibilities: 1) Toronto gave him a contract extension. I'm not entirely sure why Dubas would take it though, unless he feels that Colorado wasn't offering him enough of a promotion and he wanted to wait another season for something better to come up. It's not entirely clear what they were after Dubas for since Sakic is still technically the GM. Or 2) the Leafs just want to hang onto Kyle until after the draft and they'll let him go after that.

Friedman reported that the Leafs gave him an extension.

Either way, I really can't see a situation where Dubas ends up staying with the team long-term.

I'm still trying to figure out what is going on here considering he was the Golden Child.

Maybe he wanted out?  Maybe he wanted to try a different market in the States...or at least investigate it?

Like Nik mentioned, there were quite a few chefs in that kitchen, and that usually doesn't bode well in the long-run in terms of retaining all of them.

And I know there's a lot of Dubas love around here, but we really don't know how effective an executive he is.  Maybe he wanted to jump up the ladder, and Shanahan doesn't think he's ready.  Maybe they see growth, but not yet enough experience, so they overpaid him to stay in his current role?  At this point, it's mostly speculation.

 

[herman]

Maybe he wanted out?  Maybe he wanted to try a different market in the States...or at least investigate it?

Like Nik mentioned, there were quite a few chefs in that kitchen, and that usually doesn't bode well in the long-run in terms of retaining all of them.

And I know there's a lot of Dubas love around here, but we really don't know how effective an executive he is.  Maybe he wanted to jump up the ladder, and Shanahan doesn't think he's ready.  Maybe they see growth, but not yet enough experience, so they overpaid him to stay in his current role?  At this point, it's mostly speculation.

I know it was self-proclaimed, but Dubas isn't a ladder jumper. If he were, he'd have been gone once Lou was signed.

I think his work with the Soo and the Marlies speaks for itself. Leafs management with Dubas at the forefront was something that I was very impressed with.

Maybe I'm just a sucker for a good talk, but Dubas gave very good talk, completely different (in a good way) from managements of the past and around the league, and without the hubris of some other groups that were brought in with an overt analytics focus.

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/adater/status/869028063950098432
https://twitter.com/adater/status/869028413306273793
www.twitter.com/adater/status/869028063950098432
www.twitter.com/adater/status/869028413306273793

If this is true, then the Leafs pulling the chute makes a bit more sense.

 

[Kin]

I'm still trying to figure out what is going on here considering he was the Golden Child.

I don't think we really need to dig too deep here. You know the old joke about how a Camel is a Horse designed by committee? There are a lot of voices within the organization right now and the power structure has never been clearly articulated.

There was a fairly naive perception at the beginning that all of these big personalities would never clash and the right decision would always be made through consensus but we've already seen the cracks in that(certainly in the "right decision would always be made" department).

Right now it just seems like the odd man out is Dubas.

 

[herman]

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/mirtle-kyle-dubas-role-hard-to-figure-out-in-leafs-front-office-1.764325

Mirtle chats about his Dubas story.

James Mirtle: For the last few months, I had been wondering if the Leafs were going to lose Kyle Dubas, just because his contract was up -- the three-year contract that he signed originally when he joined the team when he was 28 years old -- and he just hasn't had as large a voice as I'm sure he would like, and as he did early on in his tenure. As they've added Lou Lamoriello and Mark Hunter, Kyle Dubas' role has shifted, and I think it's pretty fair to say that his role has been lessened pretty significantly.

And with other teams showing interest in him -- it sounds like Colorado, I'm pretty sure they offered him some kind of a prominent role in their front office, whether it is GM or Director of Hockey Operations, or whatever it was -- there were a lot of different arrows pointing in the direction of Kyle Dubas leaving the Leafs. That didn't happen; he signed a new contract and it's interesting to kind of, even though there's kind of this cone of silence around the Leafs front office, to try and figure out what's actually going on.

Scott MacArthur: If he signs an extension with the Maple Leafs and forgoes an opportunity potentially to be a GM for a team like the Avalanche, that would lead you to believe, James, then that the situation is likely to change for the better for Kyle going forward, isn't it?

Mirtle: That's my guess, is that the reason he stayed is that he feels like there's still a future for him in the Leafs organization, and you know, he still believes that Brendan Shanahan believes in him and feels that he's still part of the long-term solution with the Leafs, because -- you know I haven't talked to Kyle Dubas about this and he's been in what a lot of people call the media jail, where he isn't really allowed to talk to us outside of a couple, one or two scrums about the Marlies a year -- but I can't imagine he's super happy about with the way the situation is here.

Like you said off the top here, there's a lot of big personalities, there's a lot of people -- you know, you can put Mike Babcock in there as well, you can put Brandon Pridham in there, you can put Brendan Shanahan in there -- there's a lot of different people steering the ship that want to have a say. My sense is that it's a bit of a battle to get your voice heard, and it's a battle Dubas has been losing. There must be some reason he's decided to stay and turn down what looked like a really, really good opportunity in Colorado.

Man, it is hard to manually transcribe conversation.

 

[Zee]

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/mirtle-kyle-dubas-role-hard-to-figure-out-in-leafs-front-office-1.764325

Mirtle chats about his Dubas story.

James Mirtle: For the last few months, I had been wondering if the Leafs were going to lose Kyle Dubas, just because his contract was up -- the three-year contract that he signed originally when he joined the team when he was 28 years old -- and he just hasn't had as large a voice as I'm sure he would like, and as he did early on in his tenure. As they've added Lou Lamoriello and Mark Hunter, Kyle Dubas' role has shifted, and I think it's pretty fair to say that his role has been lessened pretty significantly.

And with other teams showing interest in him -- it sounds like Colorado, I'm pretty sure they offered him some kind of a prominent role in their front office, whether it is GM or Director of Hockey Operations, or whatever it was -- there were a lot of different arrows pointing in the direction of Kyle Dubas leaving the Leafs. That didn't happen; he signed a new contract and it's interesting to kind of, even though there's kind of this cone of silence around the Leafs front office, to try and figure out what's actually going on.

Scott MacArthur: If he signs an extension with the Maple Leafs and forgoes an opportunity potentially to be a GM for a team like the Avalanche, that would lead you to believe, James, then that the situation is likely to change for the better for Kyle going forward, isn't it?

Mirtle: That's my guess, is that the reason he stayed is that he feels like there's still a future for him in the Leafs organization, and you know, he still believes that Brendan Shanahan believes in him and feels that he's still part of the long-term solution with the Leafs, because -- you know I haven't talked to Kyle Dubas about this and he's been in what a lot of people call the media jail, where he isn't really allowed to talk to us outside of a couple, one or two scrums about the Marlies a year -- but I can't imagine he's super happy about with the way the situation is here.

Like you said off the top here, there's a lot of big personalities, there's a lot of people -- you know, you can put Mike Babcock in there as well, you can put Brandon Pridham in there, you can put Brendan Shanahan in there -- there's a lot of different people steering the ship that want to have a say. My sense is that it's a bit of a battle to get your voice heard, and it's a battle Dubas has been losing. There must be some reason he's decided to stay and turn down what looked like a really, really good opportunity in Colorado.

Man, it is hard to manually transcribe conversation.

It's a fair guess on Mirtle's part, if Dubas has signed an extension with the Leafs, there must be good reason for it.  He could have just waited until his original deal expired and then look to other teams even if the Leafs didn't give him permission to leave right now.  We may know more after the drafts, with a role like he has, I'm sure any team would be loathe to let a guy like Dubas walk right before an expansion and entry draft given how well he knows the Leafs and what they're thinking of for this summer.

 

[herman]

It's a fair guess on Mirtle's part, if Dubas has signed an extension with the Leafs, there must be good reason for it.  He could have just waited until his original deal expired and then look to other teams even if the Leafs didn't give him permission to leave right now.  We may know more after the drafts, with a role like he has, I'm sure any team would be loathe to let a guy like Dubas walk right before an expansion and entry draft given how well he knows the Leafs and what they're thinking of for this summer.

It's sort of why my take earlier was not that the Leafs revoked permission, per Friedman's guess, it was that they made a better offer that Dubas decided to take. Who would sign a contract extension with a group that apparently a) doesn't listen to him; b) doesn't let him interview for other jobs?

 

[herman]

I found a Dubas in action vid!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6tb6TS5lW8[/youtube]

I look forward to hearing useful press conferences in the near future.

 

[Kin]

Who would sign a contract extension with a group that apparently a) doesn't listen to him; b) doesn't let him interview for other jobs?

I think that's only hard to understand because we're missing the two biggest pieces of the puzzle. One, what the actual situation is in the front office right now and two,we don't really know what Dubas was offered.

So let's say Dubas has a good relationship with Shanahan and his running of the Marlies is generally well regarded in the organization. Let's also say he doesn't have a great relationship with Lamoriello and Babcock and in specific has found them to be a little resistant to the implementation of what he's doing with analytics.

(Imagine, say, that Matt Martin played all year instead of Josh Leivo)

Also, while he used to think that Shanahan had him pegged for the eventual GM's seat after Lou now it's seeming more like after Lou and after Hunter because Lou likes Hunter and he's proven to have a lot of sway with Shanahan.

Ok, so, he puts out feelers with the general understanding that the Leafs will let him go to be a GM but they'd block a lateral move. What he hears back is from some teams with problems and questions of their own in the front office and the role he's being offered may even be reduced from what it is here(running analytics but not the AHL team or given less latitude with a AHL team). Let's also speculate that maybe not every team in the league pays AGMs as well as the Leafs do.

Still, he's at least intrigued and starts talking about the details of what his new role might be with a different club and the Leafs catch the gist of all this and are like "Doesn't sound like you're being offered the GM role, shut it down".

Which leaves us with your question. Why sign the extension? Well, right now he's in an organization on the upswing which does good things for his eventual GM candidacies and maybe he's enjoying running the Marlies and making good coin for a guy his age. Do you leave that to be a part of what looks like a real mess in Colorado? Or Buffalo? Do you leave just in the hopes that a better team offers you a comparable job when you're unattached or do you hang in, let heat build on your name and work a pretty good job?

Admittedly I'm doing a lot of speculation here but in light of what some really solid reporters have said recently I really feel like I'm contorting myself here less than I'd have to in order to believe that everyone in the Leafs front office were all happy and getting along.

 

[herman]

That's good speculation, especially regarding how cushy the AGM role is here + running Analytics; there are a lot of compelling reasons to stay for a very young executive that seems humble and eager to sponge up whatever knowledge and experience he can.

Maybe it's just the way I read the Leafs' moves, but the most difficult contortion for me to take Friedman's guess of revocation at face value. In most businesses, isn't it usually a counter-offer, especially after giving permission? So when I heard Dubas was extended, that was, to me, an indication of something more being offered.

I don't think I ever figured that the front office would be happy go-lucky and hunky dory about every decision with so many egos in the room. I expected fruitful tension from the different expertises and philosophies. I expected Shanahan to ensure people stayed in their lane re: decisions, but give them opportunity to make their pitch to the decision-maker designate. Beat reporters and Steve Dangle have all heard, second-hand, of intense shouting matches over certain decisions, and I think that's okay so long as they present a united front after out of respect for the process.

At this time, Dubas' roles and responsibilities are the most limited in terms of decision-making clout. Here I will put on my speculation hat (that I never really remove, harhar), but I think Shanahan has more of a long-game approach. Looking back at the transition from Nonis/Carlyle, he laid out a mandate and gave them a shot at reaching it, and used that tire fire to convince ownership to saddle up for a rebuild. I think Shanahan is encouraging Dubas to also take a similar approach in ceding some decisions (at the margins on the Martins and Polaks) during a throwaway season to be used later as leverage.

 

[Kin]

Maybe it's just the way I read the Leafs' moves, but the most difficult contortion for me to take Friedman's guess of revocation at face value. In most businesses, isn't it usually a counter-offer, especially after giving permission? So when I heard Dubas was extended, that was, to me, an indication of something more being offered.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. It can be "stop talking to other teams, let's start working on an extension".

I don't think I ever figured that the front office would be happy go-lucky and hunky dory about every decision with so many egos in the room. I expected fruitful tension from the different expertises and philosophies. I expected Shanahan to ensure people stayed in their lane re: decisions, but give them opportunity to make their pitch to the decision-maker designate. Beat reporters and Steve Dangle have all heard, second-hand, of intense shouting matches over certain decisions, and I think that's okay so long as they present a united front after out of respect for the process.

I don't think what's being reported though is that occasionally people disagree with decisions being made, even if it's strongly. What's being reported is that those disagreements have led to actual divisions with the organization wherein people aren't really happy with the general state of things. That would explain someone like Dubas actively seeking to move on or at least explore the market for his services.

Which is, of course, what some people suggested would be the natural result of putting so many people used to operating with some authority into the same room come decision time. And I think what we've seen over the last year with some pretty questionable decisions made is pretty easy to chalk up to the simple and now well-reported fact that what's going on in the front office right now isn't really working.

 

[rdowdall]

Which is, of course, what some people suggested would be the natural result of putting so many people used to operating with some authority into the same room come decision time. And I think what we've seen over the last year with some pretty questionable decisions made is pretty easy to chalk up to the simple and now well-reported fact that what's going on in the front office right now isn't really working.

Which is concerning, because everyone is telling the Leafs they are doing a great job and ahead of schedule on the rebuild, so the fallout of this situation isn't going to be seen for a couple of seasons.

 

[puckinthehead]

Off topic, but I thought to post this for some of the great writers on this site.

[http://thehockeywriters.com/current-openings//url]

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Off topic, but I thought to post this for some of the great writers on this site.

[http://thehockeywriters.com/curren... media/blogosphere the following week anyway.

 

[herman]

Maybe it's just the way I read the Leafs' moves, but the most difficult contortion for me to take Friedman's guess of revocation at face value. In most businesses, isn't it usually a counter-offer, especially after giving permission? So when I heard Dubas was extended, that was, to me, an indication of something more being offered.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. It can be "stop talking to other teams, let's start working on an extension".

Going by the story Dubas told of how he was hired, and what little Lou has said of Shanahan's pursuit of him, that doesn't quite jibe with the way Shanahan has been reported to do things. It's well within the Leafs' rights to kibosh lateral moves; maybe it's just my blue-tinted glasses, but I still think they just naturally progressed to contract extension conversations. He was at the end of his contract after all, and could, even if the Leafs nixed permission, just simply waited it out.

I don't think what's being reported though is that occasionally people disagree with decisions being made, even if it's strongly. What's being reported is that those disagreements have led to actual divisions with the organization wherein people aren't really happy with the general state of things. That would explain someone like Dubas actively seeking to move on or at least explore the market for his services.

Which is, of course, what some people suggested would be the natural result of putting so many people used to operating with some authority into the same room come decision time. And I think what we've seen over the last year with some pretty questionable decisions made is pretty easy to chalk up to the simple and now well-reported fact that what's going on in the front office right now isn't really working.

I think this is where we are simply seeing the same situation from different perspectives and drawing different conclusions. In this messy situation, there is a lot of justification for your very correct views last year regarding Lou's signing. If there truly will be a handoff to Dubas following the expiration of Lou's contract, there's the additional benefit that Dubas will have less attachment to the Lou signings as the cap crunch rolls around.

On the part of Dubas, I don't believe he actively pursued another team as that is outside his philosophy. I agree he was feeling quite miffed by the situation though, and maybe I'm reading a bit too deeply into these retweets so close to the time of this news coming out:

https://twitter.com/kyledubas/status/864482732814061568
www.twitter.com/kyledubas/status/864482732814061568
https://twitter.com/kyledubas/status/867105492845416448
www.twitter.com/kyledubas/status/867105492845416448

 

[Kin]

Going by the story Dubas told of how he was hired, and what little Lou has said of Shanahan's pursuit of him, that doesn't quite jibe with the way Shanahan has been reported to do things.

There's a pretty tight limit to the extent I'm going to let a company that tries to tightly control information about its inner workings determine the extent to which the information they choose to get out there determine what I think about what goes on inside of it. 

It's well within the Leafs' rights to kibosh lateral moves; maybe it's just my blue-tinted glasses, but I still think they just naturally progressed to contract extension conversations. He was at the end of his contract after all, and could, even if the Leafs nixed permission, just simply waited it out.

He could but that's also very risky for him. You may be greatly overestimating the extent to which he's desired around the league. If the teams who are interested aren't interested until his deal expires before filling whatever role they offered him then Dubas would be walking away from a team and organization with a lot of pull in the NHL and go into...what?

On the part of Dubas, I don't believe he actively pursued another team as that is outside his philosophy. I agree he was feeling quite miffed by the situation though, and maybe I'm reading a bit too deeply into these retweets so close to the time of this news coming out:

I think you have to be pretty careful about letting people's public branding of themselves come across as bible truth as to their inner workings.

 

[herman]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2017/06/06/leafs-links-kyle-dubas-offer-run-entire-hockey-operation-colorado-darren-dreger-william-nylanders-second-contract/

Bob McKenzie:

Dubas is not going to Colorado, but here is my understanding: The contact being made was from Colorado ownership. The contact with the Leafs and Dubas was in hopes of getting Dubas to come in and run the entire hockey operation of the Colorado Avalanche. What that means for everybody else there, and what the timing on all that is, I?m not sure. But we do know now that Dubas isn?t going to Colorado; at least not now.

Gadzooks!

 

[puckinthehead]

Off topic, but I thought to post this for some of the great writers on this site.

[http://thehockeywriters.com/curren...ng, because I do notice that once in a while.