Compete level!

[Kin]

Ashton has speed and some of the energy we need on most nights, and showed well in the AHL at the end of last year, and has grown roots in the pressbox.  I don't get it.

What makes it even stranger is that with Spott behind the Leafs bench now he should have a pretty big fan of him within the coaching staff. On multiple occasions last season Spott called Ashton a NHL player. And you'd think given the success Spott had with Holland and Ashton on a line together in the playoffs that the Leafs would want to try that duo out on the 4th line.

Maybe. Although it's pretty tough to look at what's gone on this season and think Carlyle's authority has been diminished at all.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Maybe. Although it's pretty tough to look at what's gone on this season and think Carlyle's authority has been diminished at all.

Definitely not. Makes you wonder how little Carlyle thinks of Ashton though if one of his assistants is probably pushing for him to play and he still can't get in the line-up. I'm not sure how much I buy them, but even going back to last season there were rumblings that management was making roster decisions to kind of force Carlyle into playing or not playing certain players. Perhaps this is Randy firing back after his enforcers were taken away from him?

 

[2badknees]

Maybe. Although it's pretty tough to look at what's gone on this season and think Carlyle's authority has been diminished at all.

Perhaps. Although there are telltale signs - ie - no enforcers. I doubt that was Randy's preference, and that's actually pretty major. And a minor for instigating.

 

[Highlander]

Frattin is more typical of your all round power forward (or at least used to be for a short time), where Ashton seems to have almost a frothing mouth maniac inside of him.  He can be very aggressive and that is usually why he ends up in the box.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Frattin is more typical of your all round power forward (or at least used to be for a short time), where Ashton seems to have almost a frothing mouth maniac inside of him.  He can be very aggressive and that is usually why he ends up in the box.

Last season Ashton had 19 PIM, and took just 2 minor penalties in 32 games. You're not the first person to bring it up, but I'm not sure where this 'Ashton takes penalties' idea comes from.

 

[freer]

Frattin is more typical of your all round power forward (or at least used to be for a short time), where Ashton seems to have almost a frothing mouth maniac inside of him.  He can be very aggressive and that is usually why he ends up in the box.

Last season Ashton had 19 PIM, and took just 2 minor penalties in 32 games. You're not the first person to bring it up, but I'm not sure where this 'Ashton takes penalties' idea comes from.

But he was really good at getting punched in the nose.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

But he was really good at getting punched in the nose.

Agreed, probably because he's not a fighter. But he knew the only way to stay in the line-up was to drop his gloves anyway.

 

[freer]

But he was really good at getting punched in the nose.

Agreed, probably because he's not a fighter. But he knew the only way to stay in the line-up was to drop his gloves anyway.

I am really not a fan, I would of rather Bodie stayed up. IMO he had a better camp.

 

[bustaheims]

See, I'm sitting on the other side of the fence.  Panik has played better than what either of Ashton or Frattin has shown in the preseason.  Frankly, I don't understand why Frattin is with the team at all.  Ashton may be better than Panik in terms of being willing to get his face punched in but Ashton also likes to take stupid penalties. I would also say that Panik has better stick handling abilities than Ashton and could have more upside in the long term.

In his entire NHL career, Ashton has been charged with six minor penalties. Six. Four of those came in his first stint with the Leafs after he was acquired in 11/12. Where on Earth did you get the idea that he likes to take stupid penalties?

 

[LuncheonMeat]

See, I'm sitting on the other side of the fence.  Panik has played better than what either of Ashton or Frattin has shown in the preseason.  Frankly, I don't understand why Frattin is with the team at all.  Ashton may be better than Panik in terms of being willing to get his face punched in but Ashton also likes to take stupid penalties. I would also say that Panik has better stick handling abilities than Ashton and could have more upside in the long term.

In his entire NHL career, Ashton has been charged with six minor penalties. Six. Four of those came in his first stint with the Leafs after he was acquired in 11/12. Where on Earth did you get the idea that he likes to take stupid penalties?

Randy, is that you?? 

 

[LuncheonMeat]

But he was really good at getting punched in the nose.

Agreed, probably because he's not a fighter. But he knew the only way to stay in the line-up was to drop his gloves anyway.

I am really not a fan, I would of rather Bodie stayed up. IMO he had a better camp.

As a center, if I'm not mistaken.  Unfortunately for him he'll need to leap-frog Holland to make it. 

I would love to be in Shanahan's head to see what he's thinking.  I have a feeling he'll quietly collect data the entire season and swing his hammer accordingly in the off-season.  It should be fun.

 

[freer]

But he was really good at getting punched in the nose.

Agreed, probably because he's not a fighter. But he knew the only way to stay in the line-up was to drop his gloves anyway.

I am really not a fan, I would of rather Bodie stayed up. IMO he had a better camp.

As a center, if I'm not mistaken.  Unfortunately for him he'll need to leap-frog Holland to make it. 

I would love to be in Shanahan's head to see what he's thinking.  I have a feeling he'll quietly collect data the entire season and swing his hammer accordingly in the off-season.  It should be fun.

I dont ever remember Bodie playing center last season. he was on a line with JM.

 

[bustaheims]

Randy, is that you?? 

No, Randy would support the off-base conclusion as justification for scratching him forever.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

But he was really good at getting punched in the nose.

Agreed, probably because he's not a fighter. But he knew the only way to stay in the line-up was to drop his gloves anyway.

I am really not a fan, I would of rather Bodie stayed up. IMO he had a better camp.

As a center, if I'm not mistaken.  Unfortunately for him he'll need to leap-frog Holland to make it. 

I would love to be in Shanahan's head to see what he's thinking.  I have a feeling he'll quietly collect data the entire season and swing his hammer accordingly in the off-season.  It should be fun.

I dont ever remember Bodie playing center last season. he was on a line with JM.

You're right.  I don't know why I thought he played center last year. 

 

[herman]

It's only been three games into the new lines, but there's been a drastic difference in the way we've played.

Balanced Lines (top 9)

• Each line has a Mucker, a Distributor, and a Finisher
• Each line has a different look, but the same goal: carry the puck deep, cycle for a chance
• Line numbering doesn't really matter as they are deployed to their strengths

Commitment to Limiting Time and Space

• Aggressive forecheck at Even Strength and on the Penalty Kill
• Backchecking in waves by using our speed

If we can keep this up, and eventually add the 4th line to the party so that we can play all 60 minutes, we'll be in good shape. There aren't too many teams that can keep up with our speed when we commit to using it to keep the puck.

 

[Bender]

At the same time Randy still is rarely using the fourth line. They only had like 5mins of playing time.

 

[moon111]

It's only been three games into the new lines, but there's been a drastic difference in the way we've played.

Balanced Lines (top 9)

• Each line has a Mucker, a Distributor, and a Finisher
• Each line has a different look, but the same goal: carry the puck deep, cycle for a chance
• Line numbering doesn't really matter as they are deployed to their strengths

Commitment to Limiting Time and Space

• Aggressive forecheck at Even Strength and on the Penalty Kill
• Backchecking in waves by using our speed

If we can keep this up, and eventually add the 4th line to the party so that we can play all 60 minutes, we'll be in good shape. There aren't too many teams that can keep up with our speed when we commit to using it to keep the puck.

Your questioning about the 4th line got me thinking, how do other team's 4th lines stack up?  Their fourth line must be that much better.  Well lets look at the L.A. Kings forwards 26 games in 13/14 playoffs.  Here's a list of players by ice-time #7 to #12.

Kyle Clifford        9:47  1g 6a 7pts  Was 6th in hits for forwards
Tanner Pearson  12:16  4g 8a 12pts  Was 10th in hits for forwards
Trevor Lewis      12:38  4g 1a 5pts  Was 4th in penalty killing ice-time for forwards &  3rd in hits for forwards
Tyler Toffoli      13:18  7g 7a 14pts
Dwight King      14:56  3g 8a 11pts
Mike Richards    15:32  3g 7a 10pts

The 3rd lines with the Leafs pretty much equal out.  It's the top two Leaf lines getting the extra from ice-time.
Even with their reduced ice-time, the 4th line is not generating offence. 
Peter Holland (3), Brandon Kozun (1), Richard Panik (1), Matt Frattin (0), Carter Ashton (0), Sam Carrick (0)
I think Holland has been on pace, but his wingers haven't.  Panik has thrown the odd hit, blocked some shots in his limited time.  Kozun has the worst +/- among forwards and has only managed 2 shots.  Frattin is a wash.  Ashton has only managed 16 assists in 151 AHL games... don't think he's the answer either. 

I'm not buying that it's Carlyle's fault for the 4th line follies.  2/3rds of them are just not that good.

 

[herman]

There's a bit of chicken or egg to Carlyle's handling of the 4th line. How can they demonstrate effectiveness with minimal opportunities? I don't blame Carlyle for his deployment so far as it has been his (successful) pattern for years, and he's really coaching for his job security here.

When our injured forwards return we will have more skill pushed down the lineup (Santorelli/Booth/Lupul/Winnik; Holland/Komarov/Ashton/Leivo).

 

[ZBBM]

It's only been three games into the new lines, but there's been a drastic difference in the way we've played.

Balanced Lines (top 9)

• Each line has a Mucker, a Distributor, and a Finisher
• Each line has a different look, but the same goal: carry the puck deep, cycle for a chance
• Line numbering doesn't really matter as they are deployed to their strengths

Commitment to Limiting Time and Space

• Aggressive forecheck at Even Strength and on the Penalty Kill
• Backchecking in waves by using our speed

If we can keep this up, and eventually add the 4th line to the party so that we can play all 60 minutes, we'll be in good shape. There aren't too many teams that can keep up with our speed when we commit to using it to keep the puck.

Breaking up the top line was essential.  The question is whether guys like Winnik can continue to (over?)produce.  The likelihood is probably not, but the concept of line balancing at least minmizes the defensive weaknesses of the previous forward lines.

 

[Bullfrog]

Peter Holland (3), Brandon Kozun (1), Richard Panik (1), Matt Frattin (0), Carter Ashton (0), Sam Carrick (0)
I think Holland has been on pace, but his wingers haven't.  Panik has thrown the odd hit, blocked some shots in his limited time.  Kozun has the worst +/- among forwards and has only managed 2 shots.  Frattin is a wash.  Ashton has only managed 16 assists in 151 AHL games... don't think he's the answer either. 

I'm not buying that it's Carlyle's fault for the 4th line follies.  2/3rds of them are just not that good.

And also 48 goals. You're cherry picking stats here.