Coronavirus

[Bender]

I really hope that the "handshake" goes the way of the Dodo.  I always respected Japanese culture with the little bow of respect.  When you think of where a hand goes in the course of a day, scary stuff.. I have to say I have learned how not to touch my face etc.  Have a makeshift mask and wear gloves slathered up with the mixture when out.

I've seen a lot of people say this.  Quite baffled by it.  Not me...if handshakes go, I think life as we/I know it is changed forever.

My half-wop blood won't allow me to never hug people again. Virus be damned (assuming we're all vaccinated!)

 

[Highlander]

I hope they can get the antibody test going asap.  I have had some very mild symptoms as mentioned, perhaps imagined out of fear.  Would be great to know whether it has past through us and then we are safe to go out and help others. 
I wonder when they have this test if you will get some sort of identification, so others do not have to be afraid of you.

 

[Kin]

I hope people (and governments) come to appreciate all the front-line folk more after this (hopefully) passes: nurses, docs, EMTs, grocery store staff, food services, teachers, sanitation workers

I said something similar earlier and I agree. We're seeing now the value of these people every day and stretches far beyond what a free market system pegs for them. The economy is taking a nose dive because the average work of undervalued people is being disrupted, not because enough money hasn't been diverted to the already wealthy.

The last 30 years have seen massive amounts of gains in terms of worker productivity in this country but almost all of the benefits have been going to capital interests and not labour. I just don't think that's sustainable for a society that may, in the future, require people to risk their health to work at jobs that don't pay them a living wage.

Also, congrats on the kid.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Apparently, Amsterdam Brewery has free delivery available online.

We are GHA. But, I will order immediately if they deliver. Carlton X 2.

AB doesn't deliver here. Nickel Brook on the other hand...

 

[herman]

I said something similar earlier and I agree. We're seeing now the value of these people every day and stretches far beyond what a free market system pegs for them. The economy is taking a nose dive because the average work of undervalued people is being disrupted, not because enough money hasn't been diverted to the already wealthy.

The last 30 years have seen massive amounts of gains in terms of worker productivity in this country but almost all of the benefits have been going to capital interests and not labour. I just don't think that's sustainable for a society that may, in the future, require people to risk their health to work at jobs that don't pay them a living wage.

Also, congrats on the kid.

Thanks, Nik! People are also finding out just how much stay-at-home parents have to deal with regularly (the hard way).

Spain just announced it was moving towards setting up universal basic income. Imagine if UBI and basic health insurance take care of the first two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy of needs for everyone.

 

[bustaheims]

Spain just announced it was moving towards setting up universal basic income. Imagine if UBI and basic health insurance take care of the first two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy of needs for everyone.

We're slowly moving towards the dream of the Star Trek utopia.

Also, congrats on the new clone.

 

[Arn]

Congrats on the new arrival Herman! Hope you're all getting enough sleep, but I guess if there's one benefit of the current situation you don't have to commute so you can get a bit of a lie in.....

My company has taken the pretty tough decision to "furlough" about half our staff which means they basically go off on full pay but do no work for 2 months and the UK government pays us 80% of their salary. It basically means my company goes from a now projected loss this year to more or less breaking even. It's obviously good for the staff but at the same time it's possibly awkward for them making them feel undervalued. But if we don't do it there may not be a company for them to go back to when this is all over.

In Northern Ireland we still seem to have been sheltered a little bit. Only 5 more deaths announced today for a total of 78. 84 new cases for a total of 1339 so we don't seem to have been as badly hit as across the Irish Sea. Possibly our more rural, dispersed population has helped us a little there so far

 

[herman]

Thanks, busta & Arn!

You're fortunate that Ireland was not a must-see destination in December/January! Most of the countries that have spiked appeared to have been people coming back from that cruise that inexplicably got turned into an incubator when everyone was quarantined on the ship to ensure that everyone became a carrier before they were released and sent home with no further isolation.

 

[Highlander]

France update, our editor lives in a village in southern France. Asked her about things.

"People can exercise within one kilometer of their homes and only for an hour once a day. Cycling is banned, because if someone has an accident, then they will be taxing the health services unnecessarily. I presume this means the groups of cyclists that clog the roads on a weekend and not a cycle to the store".

 

[Stebro]

It seem like the worst is over in Stockholm although we will see a lot more deaths. It also seems that a lot of people in Stockholm have developed antibodies based on preliminary studies. Our authorities claim that our stats of deaths are very accurate, although lagging behind a few days at max. In our stats deaths outside the regular healthcare is also included. On the press conference today our authorities were more calm than they've been in the last couple of weeks.

One positive fact is that we have much fewer deaths than usual in other virus inflicted diseases.

Also it was mentioned yesterday by Trump that we are suffering a lot. I feel sorry for the ones who have lost loved ones, but that statement isn't true and our healthcare although tired and stressed have done a magnificent job. In Stockholm the capacity for ICU patients is currently at 180% of its normal capacity.

Also I have seen a lot of pictures of people in Stockholm sitting in crowded restaurants both in media abroad and in Sweden. However after having been in Stockholm a lot I would say that those are exceptions and not an accurate reflection of the situation here in general.

 

[Bender]

It seem like the worst is over in Stockholm although we will see a lot more deaths. It also seems that a lot of people in Stockholm have developed antibodies based on preliminary studies. Our authorities claim that our stats of deaths are very accurate, although lagging behind a few days at max. In our stats deaths outside the regular healthcare is also included. On the press conference today our authorities were more calm than they've been in the last couple of weeks.

One positive fact is that we have much fewer deaths than usual in other virus inflicted diseases.

Also it was mentioned yesterday by Trump that we are suffering a lot. I feel sorry for the ones who have lost loved ones, but that statement isn't true and our healthcare although tired and stressed have done a magnificent job. In Stockholm the capacity for ICU patients is currently at 180% of its normal capacity.

Also I have seen a lot of pictures of people in Stockholm sitting in crowded restaurants both in media abroad and in Sweden. However after having been in Stockholm a lot I would say that those are exceptions and not an accurate reflection of the situation here in general.

How is running at 180% sustainable?

Norway currently has better metrics in literally every single statistic than Sweden right now in fighting this. Norway has fewer cases and has done double the tests. The COVID IFR isn't as bad as the CFR, and that's true also in Sweden, but also 68 deaths per million vs 19 per million in Norway. Norway has higher cases per population but are testing the hell out of their population. I mean there are more patients in serious and critical condition in Sweden than Canada.

I understand you want to be positive about Sweden, but the way it's going you're going to have case studies for years concluding that out of the two, Norway made the right decisions vs. Sweden.

 

[Stebro]

It seem like the worst is over in Stockholm although we will see a lot more deaths. It also seems that a lot of people in Stockholm have developed antibodies based on preliminary studies. Our authorities claim that our stats of deaths are very accurate, although lagging behind a few days at max. In our stats deaths outside the regular healthcare is also included. On the press conference today our authorities were more calm than they've been in the last couple of weeks.

One positive fact is that we have much fewer deaths than usual in other virus inflicted diseases.

Also it was mentioned yesterday by Trump that we are suffering a lot. I feel sorry for the ones who have lost loved ones, but that statement isn't true and our healthcare although tired and stressed have done a magnificent job. In Stockholm the capacity for ICU patients is currently at 180% of its normal capacity.

Also I have seen a lot of pictures of people in Stockholm sitting in crowded restaurants both in media abroad and in Sweden. However after having been in Stockholm a lot I would say that those are exceptions and not an accurate reflection of the situation here in general.

How is running at 180% sustainable?

Norway currently has better metrics in literally every single statistic than Sweden right now in fighting this. Norway has fewer cases and has done double the tests. The COVID IFR isn't as bad as the CFR, and that's true also in Sweden, but also 68 deaths per million vs 19 per million in Norway. Norway has higher cases per population but are testing the hell out of their population. I mean there are more patients in serious and critical condition in Sweden than Canada.

I understand you want to be positive about Sweden, but the way it's going you're going to have case studies for years concluding that out of the two, Norway made the right decisions vs. Sweden.

The capacity is at 180% right now, and still increasing, but it's only running at about 160% right now, and as it goes down which it likely will, Stockholm will be able to help the rest of the country if needed. Well, Sweden's main problem was that it spread in residential homes (25% of Sweden's total deaths have been old people in residential homes in Stockholm alone), a problem which Norway hasn't had, and that's not related to the overall strategy itself, it was related to lack of protective equipment thanks to some countries in EU who refused to let our supplies through, another reason is that Norway tested a lot in residential homes, which we should have been better at. But Sweden will ramp up the testing in an extreme way to about 100.000 tests per week. What's complicated though is that the tests are not always accurate, the issue is say that you are tested at this instance, it may be negative, but in 8 hours you may be positive, because the tests will not be able to spot the virus under a certain level, and then you have to test the same people over and over again. The antibody tests are more accurate, because you can not have developed antibodies if you haven't been sick.

Another thing to consider is that Norway will have to be more worried than Sweden when they start to open things up, because history shows that it can get bad quickly once you do that if you don't have a lot of control and do it in a very slow pace. Currently we have 687 deaths, and 6 of them have been under the age of 50, regardless of they have an underlying condition or not. In the regular flu we usually have 15-40 (it vary a lot) deaths in that group per year.

 

[Bender]

It seem like the worst is over in Stockholm although we will see a lot more deaths. It also seems that a lot of people in Stockholm have developed antibodies based on preliminary studies. Our authorities claim that our stats of deaths are very accurate, although lagging behind a few days at max. In our stats deaths outside the regular healthcare is also included. On the press conference today our authorities were more calm than they've been in the last couple of weeks.

One positive fact is that we have much fewer deaths than usual in other virus inflicted diseases.

Also it was mentioned yesterday by Trump that we are suffering a lot. I feel sorry for the ones who have lost loved ones, but that statement isn't true and our healthcare although tired and stressed have done a magnificent job. In Stockholm the capacity for ICU patients is currently at 180% of its normal capacity.

Also I have seen a lot of pictures of people in Stockholm sitting in crowded restaurants both in media abroad and in Sweden. However after having been in Stockholm a lot I would say that those are exceptions and not an accurate reflection of the situation here in general.

How is running at 180% sustainable?

Norway currently has better metrics in literally every single statistic than Sweden right now in fighting this. Norway has fewer cases and has done double the tests. The COVID IFR isn't as bad as the CFR, and that's true also in Sweden, but also 68 deaths per million vs 19 per million in Norway. Norway has higher cases per population but are testing the hell out of their population. I mean there are more patients in serious and critical condition in Sweden than Canada.

I understand you want to be positive about Sweden, but the way it's going you're going to have case studies for years concluding that out of the two, Norway made the right decisions vs. Sweden.

The capacity is at 180% right now, and still increasing, but it's only running at about 160% right now, and as it goes down which it likely will, Stockholm will be able to help the rest of the country if needed. Well, Sweden's main problem was that it spread in residential homes (25% of Sweden's total deaths have been old people in residential homes in Stockholm alone), a problem which Norway hasn't had, and that's not related to the overall strategy itself, it was related to lack of protective equipment thanks to some countries in EU who refused to let our supplies through, another reason is that Norway tested a lot in residential homes, which we should have been better at. But Sweden will ramp up the testing in an extreme way to about 100.000 tests per week. What's complicated though is that the tests are not always accurate, the issue is say that you are tested at this instance, it may be negative, but in 8 hours you may be positive, because the tests will not be able to spot the virus under a certain level, and then you have to test the same people over and over again. The antibody tests are more accurate, because you can not have developed antibodies if you haven't been sick.

Another thing to consider is that Norway will have to be more worried than Sweden when they start to open things up, because history shows that it can get bad quickly once you do that if you don't have a lot of control and do it in a very slow pace. Currently we have 687 deaths, and 6 of them have been under the age of 50, regardless of they have an underlying condition or not. In the regular flu we usually have 15-40 (it vary a lot) deaths in that group per year.

There's a few things I could rebut here, but I only want to point out that maybe that is a difference of philosophy, but criticizing one test over another when they have different functions seems odd to me. The PCR test is to detect COVID, afterward you quarantine, and trace contacts. This is the South Korean model which has basically been the best in the world thus far. There are false negatives for sure - I'm not sure of the rate - but it's our best tool to make sure there aren't people out there, especially in the health care & at risk fields and lthc patients etc. Serology tests are important but will only tell you who has already developed anti-bodies to the disease and therefore who already was sick. Both need to be used in tandem.

Also counting deaths at this point and comparing it to flu season is also strange. I know you probably don't mean it this way but you're almost implying that people under 50 are the people worth saving, who cares about the rest of the numbers?

And I mean, I know this has been trumpeted over and over, but this disease is the old Wayne Gretzky quote - skate to where the puck is going. You're making it sound like just because Sweden has weathered it so far means it bodes well going forward. You don't know if they won't be forced to shut at this point, and even then there was always knowledge knowing if your country is in quarantine you have to walk a tightrope when opening back up.

I hope Sweden has made the right decisions, but I have a hard time squaring the circle when you've got countries like Finland, Norway, Australia, South Korea are all trending better and have proven as better models. I'm not saying Canada is doing a great job, we need to do better also, I just find the posts rub off a bit nationalistic in the sense that Sweden's model truly could not be followed by the vast majority of countries (and to an even greater extent, the Netherlands - good lord).

 

[Stebro]

It seem like the worst is over in Stockholm although we will see a lot more deaths. It also seems that a lot of people in Stockholm have developed antibodies based on preliminary studies. Our authorities claim that our stats of deaths are very accurate, although lagging behind a few days at max. In our stats deaths outside the regular healthcare is also included. On the press conference today our authorities were more calm than they've been in the last couple of weeks.

One positive fact is that we have much fewer deaths than usual in other virus inflicted diseases.

Also it was mentioned yesterday by Trump that we are suffering a lot. I feel sorry for the ones who have lost loved ones, but that statement isn't true and our healthcare although tired and stressed have done a magnificent job. In Stockholm the capacity for ICU patients is currently at 180% of its normal capacity.

Also I have seen a lot of pictures of people in Stockholm sitting in crowded restaurants both in media abroad and in Sweden. However after having been in Stockholm a lot I would say that those are exceptions and not an accurate reflection of the situation here in general.

How is running at 180% sustainable?

Norway currently has better metrics in literally every single statistic than Sweden right now in fighting this. Norway has fewer cases and has done double the tests. The COVID IFR isn't as bad as the CFR, and that's true also in Sweden, but also 68 deaths per million vs 19 per million in Norway. Norway has higher cases per population but are testing the hell out of their population. I mean there are more patients in serious and critical condition in Sweden than Canada.

I understand you want to be positive about Sweden, but the way it's going you're going to have case studies for years concluding that out of the two, Norway made the right decisions vs. Sweden.

The capacity is at 180% right now, and still increasing, but it's only running at about 160% right now, and as it goes down which it likely will, Stockholm will be able to help the rest of the country if needed. Well, Sweden's main problem was that it spread in residential homes (25% of Sweden's total deaths have been old people in residential homes in Stockholm alone), a problem which Norway hasn't had, and that's not related to the overall strategy itself, it was related to lack of protective equipment thanks to some countries in EU who refused to let our supplies through, another reason is that Norway tested a lot in residential homes, which we should have been better at. But Sweden will ramp up the testing in an extreme way to about 100.000 tests per week. What's complicated though is that the tests are not always accurate, the issue is say that you are tested at this instance, it may be negative, but in 8 hours you may be positive, because the tests will not be able to spot the virus under a certain level, and then you have to test the same people over and over again. The antibody tests are more accurate, because you can not have developed antibodies if you haven't been sick.

Another thing to consider is that Norway will have to be more worried than Sweden when they start to open things up, because history shows that it can get bad quickly once you do that if you don't have a lot of control and do it in a very slow pace. Currently we have 687 deaths, and 6 of them have been under the age of 50, regardless of they have an underlying condition or not. In the regular flu we usually have 15-40 (it vary a lot) deaths in that group per year.

There's a few things I could rebut here, but I only want to point out that maybe that is a difference of philosophy, but criticizing one test over another when they have different functions seems odd to me. The PCR test is to detect COVID, afterward you quarantine, and trace contacts. This is the South Korean model which has basically been the best in the world thus far. There are false negatives for sure - I'm not sure of the rate - but it's our best tool to make sure there aren't people out there, especially in the health care & at risk fields and lthc patients etc. Serology tests are important but will only tell you who has already developed anti-bodies to the disease and therefore who already was sick. Both need to be used in tandem.

Also counting deaths at this point and comparing it to flu season is also strange. I know you probably don't mean it this way but you're almost implying that people under 50 are the people worth saving, who cares about the rest of the numbers?

And I mean, I know this has been trumpeted over and over, but this disease is the old Wayne Gretzky quote - skate to where the puck is going. You're making it sound like just because Sweden has weathered it so far means it bodes well going forward. You don't know if they won't be forced to shut at this point, and even then there was always knowledge knowing if your country is in quarantine you have to walk a tightrope when opening back up.

I hope Sweden has made the right decisions, but I have a hard time squaring the circle when you've got countries like Finland, Norway, Australia, South Korea are all trending better and have proven as better models. I'm not saying Canada is doing a great job, we need to do better also, I just find the posts rub off a bit nationalistic in the sense that Sweden's model truly could not be followed by the vast majority of countries (and to an even greater extent, the Netherlands - good lord).

Sweden did pretty much the same thing everyone else did from the beginning, which was to trace all cases, and test everyone who's been in contact with them and have the self isolate, but once it was starting to spread around all over the country. Everyone who has any type of symptoms have been told to stay at home no questions asked, and the reason why is because everyone knows that there will be false negatives, and it's difficult to have a long term solution where you test the same people over and over again, because you know that at a certain level it will show negative, and hours later it would show positive. So then social distancing becomes very important. There are very few indications that we will have to lock up or shut down schools as it stands now since it's the virus is decreasing where it hit us worst. However the parliament passed a new legislation so that the government can make quick decisions if it is needed.

Well as for Finland etc I would say they all have a higher risk of it flaring up again, and they have the long term risk of what happens if a second wave hits in the autumn or so, and very few are immune, and there's no cure, and no vaccine. Finland is also behind us on the curve. Now I hope that there will be some sort of efficient old virus medicine that will be efficient soon, because I don't want to see anyone get hit hard. It's fine if the posts sounds a bit nationalistic, I support the Swedish strategy for long term reasons, I think it was brave of both our government and experts to not follow everyone else. One of the reasons why i'm talking about the swedish strategy might also be because we are taking a lot of crap abroad which I think it's inaccurate. There were headlines all over Europe, headlines like "The Swedes are turning mad", "The Swedes think they live on a different planet", "The Swedes are committing mass-suicide", "The Swedes are willing to sacrifice everyone", and that was not only in Europe. I also saw an article about how Sweden's strategy could lead to 200.000 deaths, we don't even have 1000 so...and a lot are immune now.

However strategy can also depend on what opportunity you have of being successful, I don't think the strategy that we picked would work in say New York, and so far we have not seen our healthcare being as overloaded as in Italy, Spain etc. People are very worried here, but there's no panic mode right now at least.

I'm not implying that people over 50 are not worth saving, my point was just at least based on the stats here the risk for "young" to die in the corona virus is lower than the regular flu as it stands now, but the numbers will likely increase, and media have been spreading panic about the young people.

 

[louisstamos]

Speaking of Finland, I think they'll be fine so long as they keep figuring out how to bring people back from the dead:

 

[Kin]

Spain just announced it was moving towards setting up universal basic income. Imagine if UBI and basic health insurance take care of the first two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy of needs for everyone.

Spain hasn't really announced details of their plan and, not to be pedantic about it, it'll be interesting to see if what they do is a UBI in terms of everyone in the country getting a certain amount of money or if it means increasing social welfare so that nobody is destitute. I'm not entirely sold on the former as being especially meaningful(or it's prohibitively expensive if it accomplishes the goals of the latter).

The thing I'd really like to see is some sort of significant increase in social welfare but also a Federal jobs guarantee at a higher minimum wage. If someone is capable of work and willing to do it I think there are a ton of things in the country and community that need doing and deserve a living wage.

 

[Arn]

Week 5 of working from home tomorrow for us. Hope everyone is holding up and nobody has been directly impacted by the virus.

At least another 3 weeks of ?lockdown? ahead for us here. I think it?s been mostly pretty well observed. I feel that after those 3 weeks though people may start agitating for a bit more freedom, particularly if the virus infection and death rates continue to plateau or fall

 

[Bender]

Week 5 of working from home tomorrow for us. Hope everyone is holding up and nobody has been directly impacted by the virus.

At least another 3 weeks of ?lockdown? ahead for us here. I think it?s been mostly pretty well observed. I feel that after those 3 weeks though people may start agitating for a bit more freedom, particularly if the virus infection and death rates continue to plateau or fall

Been working from home since March 16th, there's limitations in what we can do at home but there's workarounds.

I used to be a huge gamer when I was young and obviously I'd rather be able to go out and enjoy spring but I also eally have no problem riding this baby out working during the day and playing the Final Fantasy VII Remake lol. I really think people need to just ride it out and not get impatient. I feel like we've grown accustomed to instant gratification and some things just can't be rushed. People really should be able to ride out a once in 100yr event that has major health & death implications for another month or two - not rushing it is the only way we don't become Lombardy/NYC.

Just to be clear I'm referring to people who are just "fed up" than people who have to go outside to work etc.

 

[Arn]

I agree, I'm quite content at the slower pace of life at the minute. Being purely selfish, this virus sounds like a highly unpleasant one so if I'm able to stay home and avoid getting it and the associated risks to my health, or worse, it's a small price worth paying.

Luckily the weather has been decent so we've been able to spend time in the garden and get out for walks round the village pretty much daily which breaks the monotony of being in the house and working from home. I'd guess for those living in apartments etc it's been much tougher.

 

[Bender]

I agree, I'm quite content at the slower pace of life at the minute. Being purely selfish, this virus sounds like a highly unpleasant one so if I'm able to stay home and avoid getting it and the associated risks to my health, or worse, it's a small price worth paying.

Luckily the weather has been decent so we've been able to spend time in the garden and get out for walks round the village pretty much daily which breaks the monotony of being in the house and working from home. I'd guess for those living in apartments etc it's been much tougher.

Yeah I live in an apartment in midtown Toronto. Lots of people around a lot of the time and I don't want to be using the elevator or shared laundry much. Its also been kind of nutty weather so I'm not super keen on doing much outside yet. Cheers to you and yours! Glad you're keeping sane while keeping safe.