Dave Bolland

[bustaheims]

Yes this view appears to be dominant, maybe I don't know enough about it. Karlsson seemed to do alright after a similar thing, however Bolland is older.

I also think they had different tendons cut and the severity of the cut was different, as well.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

It really doesn't bring much difficulty into the situation at all. He's not an important enough player to not be able to walk away from. If he's not willing to sign at or near the terms you're comfortable with, then you let him go somewhere else.

No, I see that point, I just meant that if he wanted to prove himself after an injury, he'd take a shorter deal because he wants to sign longer term after to stay with the Leafs. The offers at his first free agency make it difficult for him, thinking that he needs to cash in now.

I suppose the Leafs have no pressure with a contract, it'll probably be take it or leave it.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I also think they had different tendons cut and the severity of the cut was different, as well.

I'm not sure how comparable they are.  Karlsson was also able to come back that same season and perform at a high level, whereas Bolland was noticeably struggling when he returned.  Karlsson was out just over 2 months with that, while Bolland was out over 4 months and still had issues.

Yeah, sounds like I'm underestimating his injury and the differences between the two players.

In Bollands defense a bit, it was agreed that he came back too early, so I'm not going to hold those 8 games against him.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

If the team does need to cut corners the result is going to have to be that they make decisions we're either not entirely comfortable with or outright think is worse than the more expensive alternative. Otherwise you're almost saying that the exact team we saw last year is the team that needs to be competitive next year which I'm far less enthusiastic about.

I will say this, I'd rather it go this way, than losing Holland in a similar fashion to the way Colborne left. I'd rather play the hell out of Holland, than trade him to a team that can give him a spot right off the hop.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I will say this, I'd rather it go this way, than losing Holland in a similar fashion to the way Colborne left. I'd rather play the hell out of Holland, than trade him to a team that can give him a spot right off the hop.

Yep.  The team needs to maximize value per $$ and I think the Leafs are more likely to get more out of Holland that way than Bolland.

 

[L K]

As for Bolland, I think I mentioned earlier my concerns over his injury and that he's probably overrated based on a 15 game stretch to the extent that we don't really know what player the Leafs will get next season.  A short deal I'd consider but I'd be very wary about giving him $4-4.5 over a number of seasons.

Yes this view appears to be dominant, maybe I don't know enough about it. Karlsson seemed to do alright after a similar thing, however Bolland is older.

I'm not sure how comparable they are.  Karlsson was also able to come back that same season and perform at a high level, whereas Bolland was noticeably struggling when he returned.  Karlsson was out just over 2 months with that, while Bolland was out over 4 months and still had issues.

They aren't comparable in the least...at least based on what limited information was released to the media.  It's kind of like saying breaking your fibula is the same as breaking your tibia because they are both lower leg bones. 

Without knowing the exact details of which tendon was actually cut, how significant the cut was , how much distance there was between the tendon ends when bringing them back to approximation, etc. it is really hard to say just what his recovery trajectory would be.  In theory with tendon cut injuries you can very often get back to weight based exercising somewhere between the 1-3 month range but full recovery can take up to a year.  Those are average/ideal scenarios however.

We don't know if Bolland had multiple tendons cut, we don't know how close to the insertion point those injuries were and we don't know if there was any underlying damage to the bone itself.  Those can all affect his recovery.

What we do know is that he had trouble with stop-starts, turning and pivots.  What we don't know is whether he is any better at doing that today than he was the last time he stepped foot on the ice.  We don't know how much of that difficulty was a mechanical problem and how much was a psychological reluctance to push the tendon.

That is really far too much in the way of questions for me to look at him as anything more than a huge risks.  Huge risks should be given 1-year deals, not multi-year contracts in a cap world.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I will say this, I'd rather it go this way, than losing Holland in a similar fashion to the way Colborne left. I'd rather play the hell out of Holland, than trade him to a team that can give him a spot right off the hop.

Yep.  The team needs to maximize value per $$ and I think the Leafs are more likely to get more out of Holland that way than Bolland.

Do you see my line of thinking that the Leafs may be better off with a more seasoned vet though? Sometimes I see the 3rd line center position harder to fill than the 2nd line guy. More important? I don't know, I'm just a little leery about a miss there.

In saying that though, if the Leafs do go with Holland, I'll be his biggest supporter and be pulling for him, because I like his game very much and don't want whatever we'd trade for him, I'd rather keep him.

 

[Corn Flake]

I will say this, I'd rather it go this way, than losing Holland in a similar fashion to the way Colborne left. I'd rather play the hell out of Holland, than trade him to a team that can give him a spot right off the hop.

Yep.  The team needs to maximize value per $$ and I think the Leafs are more likely to get more out of Holland that way than Bolland.

Do you see my line of thinking that the Leafs may be better off with a more seasoned vet though? Sometimes I see the 3rd line center position harder to fill than the 2nd line guy. More important? I don't know, I'm just a little leery about a miss there.

In saying that though, if the Leafs do go with Holland, I'll be his biggest supporter and be pulling for him, because I like his game very much and don't want whatever we'd trade for him, I'd rather keep him.

Agreed, and to Potvin's point... get more what, exactly? More defensive two-way play? More points? More PK experience and ability? More shutdown role success?  Most of those things right now you can't say Holland is going to produce where Bolland would not. I think the opposite is true in everything except maybe point totals. 

I really like Holland too, but he is a different type of player and not going to fill a prototypical defensive two-way centre role in the #3 spot like Bolland would.  I could see Holland possibly challenging Bozak and Kadri for the more offensive roles but not for what you truly need from your 3rd line centre.  I think he should start on the wing next year and move to centre in time.

With Holland here and doing really really well, I think you still need a Bolland.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

With Holland here and doing really really well, I think you still need a Bolland.

That's where I was with it, but of all the centers we have, I do however think Holland is probably the best at puck possession. I'm not sure if his stats reflect that, but I see him control the puck very well. Holland would outperform Kadri at the 3rd line position. Too bad Gauthier is still a couple years away, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I think Potvin meant price-performance.

 

[Kin]

Agreed, and to Potvin's point... get more what, exactly? More defensive two-way play? More points? More PK experience and ability? More shutdown role success?  Most of those things right now you can't say Holland is going to produce where Bolland would not. I think the opposite is true in everything except maybe point totals. 

I don't think that's the sort of thing you spend 4+ million on though. Especially considering that, ideally, I think the team's #3 center at this point would be, ideally, their #3 center on the PK as well behind Bozak and McClement(or McClement's replacement).

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Agreed, and to Potvin's point... get more what, exactly? More defensive two-way play? More points? More PK experience and ability? More shutdown role success?  Most of those things right now you can't say Holland is going to produce where Bolland would not. I think the opposite is true in everything except maybe point totals. 

I don't think that's the sort of thing you spend 4+ million on though. Especially considering that, ideally, I think the team's #3 center at this point would be, ideally, their #3 center on the PK as well behind Bozak and McClement(or McClement's replacement).

Unless we replace McClement's PK'ing, while at the same time filling the 3rd line role. Just have a utility guy making less on the 4th line. I see what you're saying though, for 4 million to be spent there, he'd have to be a big part of the team and do a bunch of things well.

 

[Kin]

Unless we replace McClement's PK'ing, while at the same time filling the 3rd line role. Just have a utility guy making less on the 4th line. I see what you're saying though, for 4 million to be spent there, he'd have to be a big part of the team and do a bunch of things well.

Except I think that you need to look at replacing McClement in that role anyway(or bringing McClement back). Bolland was ok in a penalty killing role but I don't think he's a shutdown guy himself.

I think the thing you're not really acknowledging isn't so much what 4 million dollars requires out of Bolland but what that 4 million dollars means they can't do elsewhere.

 

[Corn Flake]

Agreed, and to Potvin's point... get more what, exactly? More defensive two-way play? More points? More PK experience and ability? More shutdown role success?  Most of those things right now you can't say Holland is going to produce where Bolland would not. I think the opposite is true in everything except maybe point totals. 

I don't think that's the sort of thing you spend 4+ million on though. Especially considering that, ideally, I think the team's #3 center at this point would be, ideally, their #3 center on the PK as well behind Bozak and McClement(or McClement's replacement).

It is high, but I'm not sure it's that far off. If I look at what contending teams are paying their #3 centre, they are definitely investing a lot in that job.

Kings: Stoll: $3.25 mil
Boston: Kelly: $3 mil
SJ: Pavelski: $6 mil
Ana: Cogliano: $3 mil
Det: Weiss: $4.9 mil <- a recent UFA example.
NYR: Brassard: $3.2 mil (about to get a big raise)

Of the legit contenders (not all above are legit of course) only Chicago was paying a lot less for their 3rd line centre (Kruger/Handzus $1.25/$1 mil) and most feel going cheap down the middle below Toews is what cost them a deeper run. 

The Leafs do have to get some value out of a number of positions but based on how things have gone I think they need to invest at centre and if they are going to skimp anywhere, it should be on the wings.

 

[Kin]

I don't really know how legitimate those guys are as comparables though. Pavelski is emphatically not the Sharks' third line center(he led their forwards in ice time), Weiss wasn't signed in that capacity and most of the rest of those guys are A) cheaper and B) used as one of their team's primary penalty killers. I don't think that Bolland is a good enough defender to be thought of in that capacity.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I think the thing you're not really acknowledging isn't so much what 4 million dollars requires out of Bolland but what that 4 million dollars means they can't do elsewhere.

True enough. The defense needs work also.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think Potvin meant price-performance.

That is what I meant, and that is the phrasing that was on the tip of my tongue and could not get.

I don't think Holland will necessarily bring MORE of any one area than Bolland, just that he'll bring enough to be much better value for the team allocating their resources than Bolland will likely be.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Agreed, and to Potvin's point... get more what, exactly? More defensive two-way play? More points? More PK experience and ability? More shutdown role success?  Most of those things right now you can't say Holland is going to produce where Bolland would not. I think the opposite is true in everything except maybe point totals. 

I don't think that's the sort of thing you spend 4+ million on though. Especially considering that, ideally, I think the team's #3 center at this point would be, ideally, their #3 center on the PK as well behind Bozak and McClement(or McClement's replacement).

It is high, but I'm not sure it's that far off. If I look at what contending teams are paying their #3 centre, they are definitely investing a lot in that job.

Kings: Stoll: $3.25 mil
Boston: Kelly: $3 mil
SJ: Pavelski: $6 mil
Ana: Cogliano: $3 mil
Det: Weiss: $4.9 mil <- a recent UFA example.
NYR: Brassard: $3.2 mil (about to get a big raise)

Of the legit contenders (not all above are legit of course) only Chicago was paying a lot less for their 3rd line centre (Kruger/Handzus $1.25/$1 mil) and most feel going cheap down the middle below Toews is what cost them a deeper run. 

The Leafs do have to get some value out of a number of positions but based on how things have gone I think they need to invest at centre and if they are going to skimp anywhere, it should be on the wings.

It's hard to compare the contracts without knowing how much those teams have invested in other positions.  $4 million as a 3rd C to one team might be fine but to another they might have so much money tied up elsewhere that it's not a good deal for them.

 

[freer]

IMO we fans in TO, over hype our prospects. I do not think Holland is anywhere near a replacement for Bolland as many have stated in the thread. There was a reason his last team let him go for almost nothing. Just saying!

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

IMO we fans in TO, over hype our prospects. I do not think Holland is anywhere near a replacement for Bolland as many have stated in the thread. There was a reason his last team let him go for almost nothing. Just saying!

Yeah you're right, Chicago didn't really get much for Bolland.

 

[freer]

IMO we fans in TO, over hype our prospects. I do not think Holland is anywhere near a replacement for Bolland as many have stated in the thread. There was a reason his last team let him go for almost nothing. Just saying!

Yeah you're right, Chicago didn't really get much for Bolland.

No they did n't but they were inquiring about him again at the trade deadline.