David Clarkson

[GhostofPotvin29]

Clarkson's had bad bounces like any player does, but I'm talking about his career - very similar point totals, and Kulemin a higher career PPG.

Overpaying UFA's is well known, but it doesn't mean you overpay them to this degree.  It's early to criticize it too harshly, but at the same time there's not much in his history to suggest he has another level to get to, so I think it's going to be a lot of the same.

Which, again, I don't mind his game at all, per se - just what the team is paying to get it, and whether they needed to get more of it at all.

I generally agree with you.  But Nonis wanted the player and he paid what was needed to get him.  We can argue whether or not Clarkson is what they needed, and we'll have the benefit of retrospect in doing so.  I think the deal will look less onerous as the cap goes up, but I feel confident that Nonis paid what was then market value for the player.

I don't think the benefit of retrospect is needed considering this was hardly a universally loved deal nor was before it was signed.  But I don't know what I'm supposed to do with "I feel confident that Nonis paid what was then market value for the player"?  If for some reason the market price for a hot dog becomes $1,000.00 per hot dog, I should still be roundly criticized if I decide I have to have that hot dog for $1,000.00 even though it's not worth anywhere near that.

 

[Highlander]

The hot dog in my gut tells me that real Clarkson is going to show up just when we need him the most?.pass the mustard

 

[Big Daddy]

"Plus I'm getting sick of seeing his stupid face with the crazy eyes".    BrownRolo


Now thats laugh out loud funny to me

 

[bustaheims]

Just out of curiousity, what do you think Kulemin gets next season? I'd be surprised if he went much higher than $3mil. Defensive wingers typically don't get paid much in free agency.

I'm expecting somewhere in the $3M-$3.5M range, depending on what his ends of season totals look like, where the cap ends up, etc.

 

[bustaheims]

I generally agree with you.  But Nonis wanted the player and he paid what was needed to get him.  We can argue whether or not Clarkson is what they needed, and we'll have the benefit of retrospect in doing so.  I think the deal will look less onerous as the cap goes up, but I feel confident that Nonis paid what was then market value for the player.

It's not really hindsight when a lot of us were saying he didn't deserve more than $3.5M-$4M per before the off season even started.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

The hot dog in my gut tells me that real Clarkson is going to show up just when we need him the most?.pass the mustard

2 regulation wins in past 16 games, the team really needs him the most right now.  Could be make or break for the playoffs.

 

[Highlander]

Agreed Potvin but injuries to Bolland and Bozak and the insistance of playing Frazer and Frazer (sounds like a dance team) over obvious young talent like Holland, Leivo etc certainly is not helping our chances. I believe Clarkson will find his game very shortly?.I saw good things with him when I watched the Devils and expect him to play to that level here.

 

[Erndog]

Considering the 7 years and $5M+ salary I'd say this will go down as the absolute worst contract ever given out by the Maple Leafs. 

He may be a little better/useful than Komisarek but the added 2 years and $800K more doesn't justify it.

Thankfully the cap will likely be going up exponentially in the next several years.

 

[Britishbulldog]

I am definitely on the fence regarding Clarkson because it was reported by reputable sources that he took less to come to Toronto.  Based on all the years he played in the NHL I figured that Clarkson proved he was worth between $2.75 and $3.5 MIL so I expected that UFA cost would be between $3.75 and $4.5 MIL because you always seem to overpay for desired UFAs.  The $5.25 MIL is almost $2 MIL more than I thought he would be worth as top 3rd line/lower 2nd line RW who could stir up some trouble as a middleweight tough guy with a bit of ability to score.

At this point though he is only a little over 20 games in a 7 year contract so hopefully he will settle in but he is more like a Ryan Malone or Darcy Tucker in my eyes.  Tucker looked larger than life when he was a depth player below Mogilny, Sundin, Roberts, Nolan, Neiwendyk and tough guys Corson and Domi who could fight and play with some skill.  When those guys were mostly gone Tucker couldn't compete in a top 6 role. 

I see Clarkson in the exact same light as Tucker.  He is below Kessel, 1st line center, JVR, Lupul and Kadri in skill and would be protected as a fighter if the Leafs employed a couple of fighters with some hockey skill like Stewart and dare I say...Chris Neil?

When I stop thinking that Clarkson is the second coming of Clark or a comparable to Lucic and that he is a top 3rd line RW player I am OK with his performance.  That is when I only am concerned that he is making $1.5 MIL too much which might not matter in 2 years.

 

[moon111]

One element I was really hoping to see was a huge effort in front of the net.  Driving to the net, screening goalies, banging in rebounds, etc.  The problem with that is, Toronto is rarely out of their own zone and the defensemen don't know how to shoot.  Someone said give him 40 games.  I say give him 40 games with a different coach.

 

[Britishbulldog]

One element I was really hoping to see was a huge effort in front of the net.  Driving to the net, screening goalies, banging in rebounds, etc.  The problem with that is, Toronto is rarely out of their own zone and the defensemen don't know how to shoot.  Someone said give him 40 games.  I say give him 40 games with a different coach.

Yeah, I agree.  I thought with JVR on the top line, Kulemin on the 2nd and Clarkson on the 3rd line that all 3 lines would have a physically strong net presence finally for screens, tip ins, garbage goals.

JVR has been awesome.  The 2nd and 3rd lines...not so much.

 

[Highlander]

Clarkson was all over their Goalie for Hollands goal?worth an assist at least

 

[Champ Kind]

I generally agree with you.  But Nonis wanted the player and he paid what was needed to get him.  We can argue whether or not Clarkson is what they needed, and we'll have the benefit of retrospect in doing so.  I think the deal will look less onerous as the cap goes up, but I feel confident that Nonis paid what was then market value for the player.

It's not really hindsight when a lot of us were saying he didn't deserve more than $3.5M-$4M per before the off season even started.

No, what I said was that we can use hindsight to debate whetehr or not Clarkson is the player the Leafs needed or, should I say, need.  It's fine that you and some of the more astute members were saying he deserved $3.5 - $4.0.  My point is simply that, once Nonis decided this was the player he wanted, ostensibly to 'replace' Grabovski, he had to pay market value.  With Boyd Gordon getting $3M+, I don't think it's a stretch to say the contract he signed with Toronto was reasonable given the market.

 

[bustaheims]

No, what I said was that we can use hindsight to debate whetehr or not Clarkson is the player the Leafs needed or, should I say, need.

A number of us argued that he wasn't that, either. They may have needed someone that brings some of what Clarkson can, but, considering the price and everything else, a lot of us didn't feel that player was Clarkson himself.

 

[mr grieves]

One element I was really hoping to see was a huge effort in front of the net.  Driving to the net, screening goalies, banging in rebounds, etc.  The problem with that is, Toronto is rarely out of their own zone and the defensemen don't know how to shoot.  Someone said give him 40 games.  I say give him 40 games with a different coach.

Well, he did it yesterday on Holland's goal. And did it against Dallas on Smith's. And, before that, he's been looking more like the $3.5-4m grinder-with-skill everyone thought the team needed. 

 

[mr grieves]

No, what I said was that we can use hindsight to debate whetehr or not Clarkson is the player the Leafs needed or, should I say, need.  It's fine that you and some of the more astute members were saying he deserved $3.5 - $4.0.  My point is simply that, once Nonis decided this was the player he wanted, ostensibly to 'replace' Grabovski, he had to pay market value.  With Boyd Gordon getting $3M+, I don't think it's a stretch to say the contract he signed with Toronto was reasonable given the market.

That's probably a fair explanation of how the Clarkson signing went. It's also a pretty solid indictment of Nonis as a GM.

 

[Highlander]

And considering the cap will probably be around 90 million in 3 years it may look like a very good deal.

 

[drummond]

If I were Carlyle I would try Clarkson with Holland and Kulemin, they could generate some permanent offensive zone pressure (the Leafs badly miss) and eventually score some goals.

 

[Kin]

No, what I said was that we can use hindsight to debate whetehr or not Clarkson is the player the Leafs needed or, should I say, need.  It's fine that you and some of the more astute members were saying he deserved $3.5 - $4.0.  My point is simply that, once Nonis decided this was the player he wanted, ostensibly to 'replace' Grabovski, he had to pay market value.  With Boyd Gordon getting $3M+, I don't think it's a stretch to say the contract he signed with Toronto was reasonable given the market.

I feel like the problem there is that we end up talking about two different things. One criticism of Nonis that is valid re: Clarkson is that he probably paid too much for him, although not above market, because he didn't adequately recognize that the lousy free agent class made for a market where someone of Clarkson's mediocre resume was going to get paid more money than is probably best if the team is trying to maximize every cap dollar.

That said I think what you're getting at and isn't fair is that the way Burke built this team is so they need big contributions from free agents but there's a lot of Leafs fans/observers who think that big name/big ticket free agents are going to sign in Toronto for considerably less than market value and so any signing like the Clarkson signing, which is sadly grounded in the realities of the free agent market, is going to terribly conflict with the image they had in their head of signing Ryan Getzlaf at 6.5 million over 4 years.

In our post-Moneyball: The Movie world where people are going to have high expectations of GM's being able to read markets and maximize the efficient use of them, saying Clarkson came at market value isn't much of a defense of him. That said, I think if you look back at the thread of the signing a lot of people here liked the acquisition but balked at the price and that's kind of an unresolveable dilemma if the team is ever actually going to be improved.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

He's played 21 games as a Leaf. TWENTY-ONE.

Does anyone think it's fair to give him at least 40, that's half a season, before we run him out of town?

No. Kulemin can have years, but Clarkson's only allowed a third of a season.

Or maybe it's because Kulemin has a $2.8 million cap hit compared to Clarkson's $5.25 million cap hit (almost double the cap hit) while providing virtually the same offensive output.

You honestly think people would be complaining about Clarkson's play at $2.8 million the way they are at $5.25 million?  It's a cap league, it's a legitimate complaint when the $2.8 million player has historically and continues to perform at a similar level as the $5.25 million player (last season they were 1 point apart, this season the same so far).  Obviously Kulemin won't be at $2.8 million after this season, but he won't be at $5.25 million either. 

EDIT: And I'd be FAR easier on Clarkson (not that I feel I've been particularly harsh on him) if he was being paid more commensurate with his skills.  Just as I'd be far harsher on Kulemin if he was taking up $5.25 million on the roster.

Relax. It's a joke.

I've been pretty clear in my opinion of the Clarkson signing that I don't think he'll ever live up to the contract.