Did the Leafs Ruin Schenn's Development?

[Jalili]

I think his development was adversely affected by the circumstances here, but I also believe that he wasn't someone whose skillset warranted being selected with a top 5 pick.

 

[Corn Flake]

I think his development was adversely affected by the circumstances here, but I also believe that he wasn't someone whose skillset warranted being selected with a top 5 pick.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Karlsson, Myers, Del Zotto and Eberle look like the players who were drafted after Schenn who should have gone higher.  Considering how many teams passed on those names not sure how anyone knew better about Schenn without the benefit of hindsight.

2008 was one of the most interesting drafts in that it seemed that most teams had nearly the exact same top 8-10 players in almost the same order.  Schenn was #5 or #6 on nearly every list out there.  The four guys I mentioned above were never shown any higher than they went.

Karlsson wasn't even on several of the mocks I just checked.

 

[Drop The Gloves]

I think his development was adversely affected by the circumstances here, but I also believe that he wasn't someone whose skillset warranted being selected with a top 5 pick.

I have to agree with then 2nd part of this statement.  I don't think having him play as a 18 year old ruined him.  I don't think anything ruined him infact.  The only thing that was ruined was his stay in Toronto.  As mentioned above, he didn't have the skill set that was worth a top 5 pick. 

People expect a defensemen that is picked in the top 5 to be a top pairing defensemen.  I don't think Schenn every had the skill set or the potential to be anything more the a very good second pairing dman that could play on one of your PK units.

When you look back at that draft, and the players taken after Schenn (both forwards and Defensemen), I now see Schenn as a safe pick.  He was a guy with a lower ceiling, but at the same time a guy that would be more likely to reach his ceiling.  I just don't think people expect that out of a top 5 pick, they expect the GM to swing for the fences and try to get that franchise player. 

With that said it could have been worse.  Filatov was a guy at the time of the draft that was suppose to have a huge ceiling, and look at him now.  At the very least the leafs were able to turn Schenn into JVR. 

 

[applecheeks]

With regards to skating regression, I think he probably tried to add upper body mass and neglected his core which negatively impacted his skating.

I agree, and if he was to have stayed in Kelowna, they went to the Memorial Cup that year and more experience. also agree that two more years of jr. and a year in the A, would have made him more confident and grow with the game. The game got faster and Luke got bigger and slower. He?ll be a good D man in time.

 

[Jalili]

I think his development was adversely affected by the circumstances here, but I also believe that he wasn't someone whose skillset warranted being selected with a top 5 pick.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Karlsson, Myers, Del Zotto and Eberle look like the players who were drafted after Schenn who should have gone higher.  Considering how many teams passed on those names not sure how anyone knew better about Schenn without the benefit of hindsight.

2008 was one of the most interesting drafts in that it seemed that most teams had nearly the exact same top 8-10 players in almost the same order.  Schenn was #5 or #6 on nearly every list out there.  The four guys I mentioned above were never shown any higher than they went.

Karlsson wasn't even on several of the mocks I just checked.

That's true that schenn was considered a consensus top 5/6 pick, but I still hated the pick from day 1, based on the simple grounds that you don't use picks that high on a stay at home dman.

But I'm not complaining at this point, because that mistakes seems to have been rectified by swapping him for jvr.

 

[Leaflifer]

With regards to skating regression, I think he probably tried to add upper body mass and neglected his core which negatively impacted his skating.

I agree, and if he was to have stayed in Kelowna, they went to the Memorial Cup that year and more experience. also agree that two more years of jr. and a year in the A, would have made him more confident and grow with the game. The game got faster and Luke got bigger and slower. He?ll be a good D man in time.

I agree with all this. Guys like Yushkevich & D Markhov took a fair bit of patient development

 

[Rebel_1812]

I think luke schenn needs to take some responsibility for how his game is the same if not worse then his rookie season. 

 

[maplesyrup]

I think luke schenn needs to take some responsibility for how his game is the same if not worse then his rookie season.

Hey, now... You mean it might not be somebody else's fault? * insert mind blown gif here *

 

[hockeyfan1]

If you ask one of the writers from a hockey magazine, this is what was said about Schenn (and subseqently Gustavvson)...

Schenn has basically emerged as the poster boy for how not to draft and develop players. The Leafs wanted Schenn so badly in 2008 that they moved up two spots to get him at No. 5 overall, passing on other defensemen such as Tyler Myers, Jake Gardiner, Michael Del Zotto, Erik Karlsson and John Carlson. The fact Schenn and Myers played for the same Kelowna Rockets junior team represents an even bigger indictment of the Leafs and their scouting department.

While all those other players were continuing to hone their games in junior, college or European hockey, the Leafs saw fit to rush Schenn into the NHL as an 18-year-old for no apparent reason. Then instead of putting him into situations where he could succeed when he struggled last season, they killed his confidence.

After four years in the Leafs organization, Schenn is undoubtedly eager to see them in his rear-view mirror. The betting here is Schenn will be a much better NHL player in another organization. The same goes for Jonas Gustavsson, who will probably sign with the Winnipeg Jets or another organization for less money and emerge a capable NHL goalie, once he gets away from a goaltending coach who insisted on making him something he?s not.

Source:  THN

 

[Bender]

If you ask one of the writers from a hockey magazine, this is what was said about Schenn (and subseqently Gustavvson)...

Schenn has basically emerged as the poster boy for how not to draft and develop players. The Leafs wanted Schenn so badly in 2008 that they moved up two spots to get him at No. 5 overall, passing on other defensemen such as Tyler Myers, Jake Gardiner, Michael Del Zotto, Erik Karlsson and John Carlson. The fact Schenn and Myers played for the same Kelowna Rockets junior team represents an even bigger indictment of the Leafs and their scouting department.

While all those other players were continuing to hone their games in junior, college or European hockey, the Leafs saw fit to rush Schenn into the NHL as an 18-year-old for no apparent reason. Then instead of putting him into situations where he could succeed when he struggled last season, they killed his confidence.

After four years in the Leafs organization, Schenn is undoubtedly eager to see them in his rear-view mirror. The betting here is Schenn will be a much better NHL player in another organization. The same goes for Jonas Gustavsson, who will probably sign with the Winnipeg Jets or another organization for less money and emerge a capable NHL goalie, once he gets away from a goaltending coach who insisted on making him something he’s not.

Source:  THN

This doesn't make sense. According to the metrics Schenn was sheltered all year by starting in the defensive zone more often than other defenders and usually he didn't play against first liners. This magazine might be useful in starting a fire but not much else.

 

[Rebel_1812]

If you ask one of the writers from a hockey magazine, this is what was said about Schenn (and subseqently Gustavvson)...

Schenn has basically emerged as the poster boy for how not to draft and develop players. The Leafs wanted Schenn so badly in 2008 that they moved up two spots to get him at No. 5 overall, passing on other defensemen such as Tyler Myers, Jake Gardiner, Michael Del Zotto, Erik Karlsson and John Carlson. The fact Schenn and Myers played for the same Kelowna Rockets junior team represents an even bigger indictment of the Leafs and their scouting department.

While all those other players were continuing to hone their games in junior, college or European hockey, the Leafs saw fit to rush Schenn into the NHL as an 18-year-old for no apparent reason. Then instead of putting him into situations where he could succeed when he struggled last season, they killed his confidence.

After four years in the Leafs organization, Schenn is undoubtedly eager to see them in his rear-view mirror. The betting here is Schenn will be a much better NHL player in another organization. The same goes for Jonas Gustavsson, who will probably sign with the Winnipeg Jets or another organization for less money and emerge a capable NHL goalie, once he gets away from a goaltending coach who insisted on making him something he?s not.

Source:  THN

"the betting is"  which means we have no facts, but we are hopeful this is reality.  Schenn played with Kaberle on the top pairing his first year and played well.  Wilson regularly gave him praise.  I dispute the question of whether he was rushed.  That said there are other dmen the leafs could have picked that are now better then him.  Those guys have become better since they were drafted.  Schenn has not shown any improvement.  I think that is the real problem.  Sure he could be a great defensemen if he showed improvement but so far he hasn't .  Especially in regards to his speed.  Do your really want to pay a 6th defensemen the money he is making?

 

[hockeyfan1]

The item on Schenn was written by biased writer Ken Campbell, who seems to lambast the Leafs at every opportunity.

Yet another example of the media's views and opinions on certain Leaf situations involving their players (mostly in the negative).

I agree totally that Schenn never really showed any improvement, some may even say inclination to improve, if we were to summarize his time in Toronto.  Too bad it came to that.  I hope he does much better in Philly.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

If you ask one of the writers from a hockey magazine, this is what was said about Schenn (and subseqently Gustavvson)...

Schenn has basically emerged as the poster boy for how not to draft and develop players. The Leafs wanted Schenn so badly in 2008 that they moved up two spots to get him at No. 5 overall, passing on other defensemen such as Tyler Myers, Jake Gardiner, Michael Del Zotto, Erik Karlsson and John Carlson. The fact Schenn and Myers played for the same Kelowna Rockets junior team represents an even bigger indictment of the Leafs and their scouting department.

While all those other players were continuing to hone their games in junior, college or European hockey, the Leafs saw fit to rush Schenn into the NHL as an 18-year-old for no apparent reason. Then instead of putting him into situations where he could succeed when he struggled last season, they killed his confidence.

After four years in the Leafs organization, Schenn is undoubtedly eager to see them in his rear-view mirror. The betting here is Schenn will be a much better NHL player in another organization. The same goes for Jonas Gustavsson, who will probably sign with the Winnipeg Jets or another organization for less money and emerge a capable NHL goalie, once he gets away from a goaltending coach who insisted on making him something he?s not.

Source:  THN

This doesn't make sense. According to the metrics Schenn was sheltered all year by starting in the defensive zone more often than other defenders and usually he didn't play against first liners. This magazine might be useful in starting a fire but not much else.

Was just going to say this, although I assume you mean offensive zone.  For a defensive d-man, he was over 50% offensive zone starts, and he still had brutal Corsi numbers.

 

[LeafsInSeven]

I'm confused now. Did Schenn start a majority of shifts after a whistle in the offensive or defensive zone during the 2011/12 season? Only in the offensive zone is it sheltering a defender as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise in the defensive zone it's supposedly just playing to the player's strengths.

Also on the thought about him "usually not appearing against 1st liners": on average the team doesn't usually appear against 1st liners, 1st line forwards are usually around 40% total ice time. Plus Schenn was never the 1st pairing right side defender, that's Phaneuf, it's only natural that Phaneuf was facing 1st liners especially at even strength.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'm confused now. Did Schenn start a majority of shifts after a whistle in the offensive or defensive zone during the 2011/12 season? Only in the offensive zone is it sheltering a defender as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise in the defensive zone it's supposedly just playing to the player's strengths.

Also on the thought about him "usually not appearing against 1st liners": on average the team doesn't usually appear against 1st liners, 1st line forwards are usually around 40% total ice time. Plus Schenn was never the 1st pairing right side defender, that's Phaneuf, it's only natural that Phaneuf was facing 1st liners especially at even strength.

Schenn started 50.7% of his shifts after a face-off in the offensive zone.  For comparisons, Komisarek started 42% and Gunnarsson 45.4%.  In a Leaf context, Schenn wasn't the most protected, but for the type of d-man he is supposed to be (defensive, limited offensive potential) it is more glaring that the coaches were choosing to put him out so often in the offensive zone, rather than moreso for D zone draws (don't get me started on why Komisarek got so many defensive zone draws when he wasn't very good though).  Behindthenet.ca has all these stats, btw.

I don't really understand what your second paragraph is saying, but what you are replying to was a comment on the quality of competition Schenn faced, which was brought up to contend with the THN article which stated that the Leafs weren't putting him in a position to succeed.  The evidence seems to suggest he was put in, relatively speaking, easier minutes, so it can be argued they did try and protect him somewhat.

 

[LeafsInSeven]

Schenn started 50.7% of his shifts after a face-off in the offensive zone.  For comparisons, Komisarek started 42% and Gunnarsson 45.4%.  In a Leaf context, Schenn wasn't the most protected, but for the type of d-man he is supposed to be (defensive, limited offensive potential) it is more glaring that the coaches were choosing to put him out so often in the offensive zone, rather than moreso for D zone draws (don't get me started on why Komisarek got so many defensive zone draws when he wasn't very good though).  Behindthenet.ca has all these stats, btw.

At 50.7%, I'd take that as definite evidence of sheltering a defender especially considering what inept point man he is. Of course when you have Phaneuf, Schenn and Komisarek dressed as right side defenders on any given night, Schenn is going to be the second choice for even strength offensive zone faceoffs.

I don't really understand what your second paragraph is saying, but what you are replying to was a comment on the quality of competition Schenn faced, which was brought up to contend with the THN article which stated that the Leafs weren't putting him in a position to succeed.  The evidence seems to suggest he was put in, relatively speaking, easier minutes, so it can be argued they did try and protect him somewhat.

To be blunt, it was a comment on how stats can be used to make statements that sound meaningful but aren't necessarily meaningful.

 

[LeafsInSeven]

Thanks for the link to the site. Working those numbers is fun.

I think I take back accepting Luke Schenn as playing sheltered minutes based on the numbers I saw and worked with. Although he certainly wasn't put in a position to fail either as THN claimed.

I calculated what I'd call "Unsheltered Faceoff Starts %" from the numbers on the site. It's the percentage of even strength Defensive Zone Faceoffs relative to Total Faceoffs (Off + Def + Neu). Here are the numbers:

JAKEGARDINER 27.8%
CODYFRANSON 30.1%
JOHN-MICHAELLILES 30.0%
LUKESCHENN 30.7%
DIONPHANEUF 30.2%
CARLGUNNARSSON 32.8%
MICHAELKOMISAREK 34.6%

As you can see, Schenn was third on the team in defensive zone starts percentage.

 

[anton girdeaux]

Isn't THN usually anti-Leaf? Either way, I don't agree with their assesment that he was rushed into NHL service on our blue line.

 

[WalterSobchak]

The item on Schenn was written by biased writer Ken Campbell, who seems to lambast the Leafs at every opportunity.

Yet another example of the media's views and opinions on certain Leaf situations involving their players (mostly in the negative).

Not sure if I agree with your paint brushing here. Sure, we have some media here in Toronto who are out to get a response, to get their web hits, etc. I have to say I agree with Ken Campbell on this piece.

I know you are old enough to remember the likes of Jim Benning, Luke Richardson, and even one Randy Carlyle..all defencemen drafted and then played at a very young age, in probably the toughest market, then for whatever reason, dealt away before they all had time to develop. I am sure Schenn is just the latest young defenceman given up on far too early.
Maybe Ken Campbell is a Leaf fan and is speaking from the heart. I think he used to write for the Star in the days Bob McKenzie did, if I recall correctly.

It does seem like history repeating itself all over again. I hope Carlyle had a lot of say in this decision because I truly believe Burke is now into desperation mode and more moves that will be heavily criticized are sure to come.I think we need writers/columnists like Campbell to keep things balanced. Winning will change everything. When you win, you won't hear the criticisms, well except from Damien Cox, he's just bitter.  ;D

 

[Tigger]

They rushed him and he got banged up a bit in his first year, bad combination. I think Schenn has all the tools to be a really effective player and I'm sorry to see him go.