Do you believe Burke would draft Rielly first overall?

[Redleaf]

So you have inside information that that decision was up for debate and Burke failed to change their opinion on the matter. Ok.

I think you're engaging in a fairly revisionist history of how Brian Burke came to be GM of the Leafs. He wasn't jobless and desperate, hoping to latch onto any GM job so that he could provide for his family. The Leafs pursued him. He was gainfully employed as a NHL GM who probably had a pretty good degree of job security. If they came to him and offered him the job but refused to allow him to build the team as he saw fit he could have told them to get stuffed. He held all of the cards there.

While this all makes for an interesting read, there's really nothing here that refutes the quote of Burke saying that ownership has asked him to retool rather than rebuild.

 

[Redleaf]

So if the Marlies are doing well, it will eventually translate to the main club doing well.  Isn't that sound logic? 

Do the players who lead the AHL in scoring eventually go on to lead the NHL in scoring?

So what are you basically saying?  You're really confusing here.  You want to build from within, but you don't see success at the AHL level mean anything toward the success of the main club?  I think at this point, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.  And I don't agree with your statement that Burke is already a failure.  There's more to just being a GM than to get your team into the playoffs.  You have to view the success/failure of the GM on all of the things he does including restocking the cupboard and while yeah we don't have any elite Crosby-type stars on our team right now, he has definitely moved this club in the right direction.  Whether you believe it or not, this is definitely apparent.

This is the roster the Leafs had before Burke took over in 2009 (these are the guys who played at least a game with the main club):
Nik Antropov Brad May
Jason Blake Jamal Mayers
Carlo Colaiacovo John Mitchell
Andre Deveaux Dominic Moore
Boyd Devereaux Kris Newbury
Jeff Finger Ben Ondrus
Jonas Frogren Phil Oreskovic
Martin Gerber Justin Pogge
Mikhail Grabovski Alexei Ponikarovsky
Niklas Hagman Luke Schenn
Jeff Hamilton Jaime Sifers
Christian Hanson Matt Stajan
Jay Harrison Tim Stapleton
Ryan Hollweg Alex Steen
Curtis Joseph Lee Stempniak
Tomas Kaberle Anton Stralman
Pavel Kubina Jiri Tlusty
Nikolai Kulemin Vesa Toskala
Jeremy Williams Mike Van Ryn
Ian White

This is the roster we have as of last season minus JVR:
Colby Armstrong Jonas Gustavsson
Carter Ashton Ryan Hamilton
Keith Aulie Nazem Kadri
Darryl Boyce Phil Kessel
Tyler Bozak Mike Komisarek
Mike Brown Nikolai Kulemin
Joe Colborne John-Michael Liles
Tim Connolly Matthew Lombardi
Joey Crabb Joffrey Lupul
Philippe Dupuis Clarke MacArthur
Cody Franson Colton Orr
Matt Frattin Dion Phaneuf
Jake Gardiner James Reimer
Mikhail Grabovski Jay Rosehill
Carl Gunnarsson Jussi Rynnas
Luke Schenn Ben Scrivens
David Steckel

Aside from say Kaberle and the guys still on the team, that 2009 team is a sad bunch.  The main club is markedly better AND the Marlies went to the final.  I'd say that's progress.

It's intentional.

 

[Kin]

So what are you basically saying?

That minor league success isn't necessarily an indication of future NHL success. If you look at the list of teams that made a calder cup final in the last ten years you'll see the affiliates of teams that soon after had good NHL seasons but you also see the affiliates of teams that didn't. You look at the roster of teams that had AHL success and sometimes there's a bunch of guys who had big impacts in the NHL, sometimes there isn't. It's not as simple as you want it to be.

You have to view the success/failure of the GM on all of the things he does including restocking the cupboard and while yeah we don't have any elite Crosby-type stars on our team right now, he has definitely moved this club in the right direction. 

I don't use these as a bible or anything but in HF'S latest organizational rankings do you know where the team ranked? 18th. This after 3 seasons where the team's first round pick ended up 7th, 2nd, and 9th. With the team being that bad putting better prospects into the system is such a low bar of competency that it reads as though you're grading Burke on a curve where the only other student is JFJ.

 

[Kin]

While this all makes for an interesting read, there's really nothing here that refutes the quote of Burke saying that ownership has asked him to retool rather than rebuild.

I'm not trying to refute it. He said that. Where we differ is what that says about Burke's job performance.

But, as I said at the beginning, I don't think we were likely to have come to the same conclusion. But, then again, you're right a lot more often than I am so my opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

By the way, how are your Hamilton Predators season tickets treating you these days? Good seats?

 

[Redleaf]

While this all makes for an interesting read, there's really nothing here that refutes the quote of Burke saying that ownership has asked him to retool rather than rebuild.

I'm not trying to refute it. He said that. Where we differ is what that says about Burke's job performance.

But, as I said at the beginning, I don't think we were likely to have come to the same conclusion. But, then again, you're right a lot more often than I am so my opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

By the way, how are your Hamilton Predators season tickets treating you these days? Good seats?

Zing. Well, almost.

I know I'm gonna regret this, but what exactly is the correlation between the quote and Burke's job performance in your mind that we haven't yet discussed?

 

[Tigger]

If Morgan Rielly plays 1 game or more...

Say he plays a game, what do you think that proves?

Talk about taking something completely out of context. Yikes.

What's out of context? I'm asking what you hope to prove with that bet, nothing more.

I think you should ask yourself why my position upsets you so much that you need to get confrontational over it, especially the thought that I might win a bet over it. I thought we were supposed to be having fun here.

That's just bizarre, I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I asked you a question, Flake confronted you. If you don't want to answer, that's fine, but I really don't understand what that bet hopes to prove.

 

[Kin]

I know I'm gonna regret this, but what exactly is the correlation between the quote and Burke's job performance in your mind that we haven't yet discussed?

We really did just go over it. Reply #114.

 

[Redleaf]

I know I'm gonna regret this, but what exactly is the correlation between the quote and Burke's job performance in your mind that we haven't yet discussed?

We really did just go over it. Reply #114.

Right.

 

[rdowdall]

I know I'm gonna regret this, but what exactly is the correlation between the quote and Burke's job performance in your mind that we haven't yet discussed?

We really did just go over it. Reply #114.

Right.

I'm starting to think you two have done this before.

 

[Brian Glennie]

So if the Marlies are doing well, it will eventually translate to the main club doing well.  Isn't that sound logic? 

Do the players who lead the AHL in scoring eventually go on to lead the NHL in scoring?

So what are you basically saying?  You're really confusing here.  You want to build from within, but you don't see success at the AHL level to mean anything toward the success of the main club?  I think at this point, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.  And I don't agree with your statement that Burke is already a failure.  There's more to just being a GM than to get your team into the playoffs especially from where Burke started from roster-wise.  You have to view the success/failure of the GM on all of the things he does including restocking the cupboard and while yeah we don't have any elite Crosby-type stars on our team right now, he has definitely moved this club in the right direction.  Whether you believe it or not, this is definitely apparent.

This is the roster the Leafs had before Burke took over in 2009 (these are the guys who played at least a game with the main club):
Nik Antropov Brad May
Jason Blake Jamal Mayers
Carlo Colaiacovo John Mitchell
Andre Deveaux Dominic Moore
Boyd Devereaux Kris Newbury
Jeff Finger Ben Ondrus
Jonas Frogren Phil Oreskovic
Martin Gerber Justin Pogge
Mikhail Grabovski Alexei Ponikarovsky
Niklas Hagman Luke Schenn
Jeff Hamilton Jaime Sifers
Christian Hanson Matt Stajan
Jay Harrison Tim Stapleton
Ryan Hollweg Alex Steen
Curtis Joseph Lee Stempniak
Tomas Kaberle Anton Stralman
Pavel Kubina Jiri Tlusty
Nikolai Kulemin Vesa Toskala
Jeremy Williams Mike Van Ryn
Ian White

This is the roster we have as of last season minus JVR:
Colby Armstrong Jonas Gustavsson
Carter Ashton Ryan Hamilton
Keith Aulie Nazem Kadri
Darryl Boyce Phil Kessel
Tyler Bozak Mike Komisarek
Mike Brown Nikolai Kulemin
Joe Colborne John-Michael Liles
Tim Connolly Matthew Lombardi
Joey Crabb Joffrey Lupul
Philippe Dupuis Clarke MacArthur
Cody Franson Colton Orr
Matt Frattin Dion Phaneuf
Jake Gardiner James Reimer
Mikhail Grabovski Jay Rosehill
Carl Gunnarsson Jussi Rynnas
Luke Schenn Ben Scrivens
David Steckel

Aside from say Kaberle and the guys still on the team, that 2009 team is a sad bunch.  The main club is markedly better AND the Marlies went to the final.  I'd say that's progress.

2008-2009 Leafs (The sad bunch):
34-35-13 - 81 pts. 250GF (11th)  293GA (30th),  23rd Overall

2011-2012 Leafs (The markedly better bunch):
35-37-10 - 80 pts. 231GF (10th)  264GA (29th),  25th Overall

It's like the two seasons are almost mirror images of each other right down to the fact that both squads had defencemen named to the NHL All-Rookie Team (Schenn in 2009 and Gardiner in 2012).

I guess I'm happier getting the fifth pick this year instead of the 7th but I'm sure finding it tough to see how the club is being more effectively managed under this current regime.

 

[rdowdall]

So if the Marlies are doing well, it will eventually translate to the main club doing well.  Isn't that sound logic? 

Do the players who lead the AHL in scoring eventually go on to lead the NHL in scoring?

So what are you basically saying?  You're really confusing here.  You want to build from within, but you don't see success at the AHL level to mean anything toward the success of the main club?  I think at this point, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.  And I don't agree with your statement that Burke is already a failure.  There's more to just being a GM than to get your team into the playoffs especially from where Burke started from roster-wise.  You have to view the success/failure of the GM on all of the things he does including restocking the cupboard and while yeah we don't have any elite Crosby-type stars on our team right now, he has definitely moved this club in the right direction.  Whether you believe it or not, this is definitely apparent.

This is the roster the Leafs had before Burke took over in 2009 (these are the guys who played at least a game with the main club):
Nik Antropov Brad May
Jason Blake Jamal Mayers
Carlo Colaiacovo John Mitchell
Andre Deveaux Dominic Moore
Boyd Devereaux Kris Newbury
Jeff Finger Ben Ondrus
Jonas Frogren Phil Oreskovic
Martin Gerber Justin Pogge
Mikhail Grabovski Alexei Ponikarovsky
Niklas Hagman Luke Schenn
Jeff Hamilton Jaime Sifers
Christian Hanson Matt Stajan
Jay Harrison Tim Stapleton
Ryan Hollweg Alex Steen
Curtis Joseph Lee Stempniak
Tomas Kaberle Anton Stralman
Pavel Kubina Jiri Tlusty
Nikolai Kulemin Vesa Toskala
Jeremy Williams Mike Van Ryn
Ian White

This is the roster we have as of last season minus JVR:
Colby Armstrong Jonas Gustavsson
Carter Ashton Ryan Hamilton
Keith Aulie Nazem Kadri
Darryl Boyce Phil Kessel
Tyler Bozak Mike Komisarek
Mike Brown Nikolai Kulemin
Joe Colborne John-Michael Liles
Tim Connolly Matthew Lombardi
Joey Crabb Joffrey Lupul
Philippe Dupuis Clarke MacArthur
Cody Franson Colton Orr
Matt Frattin Dion Phaneuf
Jake Gardiner James Reimer
Mikhail Grabovski Jay Rosehill
Carl Gunnarsson Jussi Rynnas
Luke Schenn Ben Scrivens
David Steckel

Aside from say Kaberle and the guys still on the team, that 2009 team is a sad bunch.  The main club is markedly better AND the Marlies went to the final.  I'd say that's progress.

2008-2009 Leafs (The sad bunch):
34-35-13 - 81 pts. 250GF (11th)  293GA (30th),  23rd Overall

2011-2012 Leafs (The markedly better bunch):
35-37-10 - 80 pts. 231GF (10th)  264GA (29th),  25th Overall

It's like the two seasons are almost mirror images of each other right down to the fact that both squads had defencemen named to the NHL All-Rookie Team (Schenn in 2009 and Gardiner in 2012).

I guess I'm happier getting the fifth pick this year instead of the 7th but I'm sure finding it tough to see how the club is being more effectively managed under this current regime.

You could say that there is room for improvement with the current group as they are young and *should* get better as they gain experience, whereas the older group was pretty much at their plateau.  A bit of a reach I guess, but that is about the only argument I could make for having a rosy outlook on things.

Having said that, I don't see much improvement happening for the team this year.  As much as some players may take steps forward (Nikolai Kulemin, Tyler Bozak), I think it is more probable that some will take steps back (Jake Gardiner).

 

[hockeyfan1]

...I don't see much improvement happening for the team this year.  As much as some players may take steps forward (Nikolai Kulemin, Tyler Bozak), I think it is more probable that some will take steps back (Jake Gardiner).

Oh, no, I don't think Gardiner will take a step back, in fact, he should be improving for the upcoming season.

 

[maplesyrup]

No sophomore jynx?

 

[jonlleafs]

No sophomore jynx?

Sophomore jinx will be in full effect and then we'll start a Trade Gardiner thread on here shortly after the season starts.  Followed by, why didn't we trade Gardiner for Nash/Luongo/Ryan/Staal in the offseason? 

 

[moon111]

A big difference from then to now is you go from having a top-scorer like Jason Blake who was 35 to Phil Kessel who is only 24.

 

[Kin]

Oh, no, I don't think Gardiner will take a step back, in fact, he should be improving for the upcoming season.

Seriously. Name me just one player who didn't improve in their second years.

Hey, hey, I said name just one. No fair using the half-dozen examples on the Leafs either.

 

[895]

Yes I believe him.  I am naturally inclined to believe that what most people tell me is generally the truth.  I do not automatically assume everyone's lying to me unless I have a reason to.  In this case I do not have sufficient reason to doubt Mr. Burke and definitely no evidence to contradict him.

Do I find it surprising?  Sure.  But if I were to say he's lying, I'd have nothing to stand on.