ExLeaf: Chicago re-signs Viktor Stalberg, 2yr, $875k, one way deal

[Tigger]

Pretty tough, after the spending frenzy we just saw, to say that a versatile 25 year old 20 goal scorer is overpaid at three million per.

I wouldn't say that was the case when Toronto traded for him and Armstrong was characterized as 'slightly' over paid at the time though now looks better some too, in spite of injuries... Coupled with a bad back VerIety's versatility relegates him to a third line role on a cup winning team and at that price he still seems like a bit of a luxury to me.

I don't think his versatility "relegates" him to anything. His versatility allows him to be effective on the third line as well as in a top 6 role. Armstrong, as a guy who's pretty strictly a bottom six guy, may be a little overpaid at 3 per. A guy who can produce what Versteeg does in a top 6 role would get 3 million plus in just about any free agent market.

Well that's what he was in Chicago, Toronto and Philly, a third liner. When I say 'relegates' I say it with past humble hopes that he could have been more in Toronto but from his play that's what he was and is, though with a bit of upside but not a lot and with some issues. Versteeg was one of Chicago's qualification snafu's, IIRC, he never should have been making that money that early. Maybe as an ufa two years from now we could really equate his contract in a current market but I don't see it quite so comparable as a properly qualified rfa signed to a 3 year deal 2 years ago. I mean a 26 year old General bested his 3 year old career year by 9 points and got a paltry 170k more in this market.

Would you say Florida is the real winner here?

 

[Kin]

Well that's what he was in Chicago, Toronto and Philly, a third liner.

That's just not true. He was used in a variety of roles in both Toronto and Chicago. In Chicago he  spent the majority of his rookie season on a line with Jonathan Toews and either Byfuglien or Kane and responded with a pretty un-third line like 53 points. Same in Toronto where, if memory serves, he was second on the team in ice time among forwards at the time of his trade and was again producing, being on pace for 54 points.

He's good enough defensively that he can be effective in a third line role and every time he's been used in a more prominent role he's produced accordingly. A young, consistent twenty goal scorer is going to get three million dollars without that versatility.

 

[armche123]

Looks like he's still impressing people with his size and speed like he did all of us. Then they watched him play for a season and wondered where the rest of his game is.

wait they haven't seen him fight yet...  :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVHD7ROhsNI

All jokes aside.. I think he's going to be a great player for them for the price he signed for.

 

[Tigger]

Well that's what he was in Chicago, Toronto and Philly, a third liner.

That's just not true. He was used in a variety of roles in both Toronto and Chicago. In Chicago he  spent the majority of his rookie season on a line with Jonathan Toews and either Byfuglien or Kane and responded with a pretty un-third line like 53 points. Same in Toronto where, if memory serves, he was second on the team in ice time among forwards at the time of his trade and was again producing, being on pace for 54 points.

He's good enough defensively that he can be effective in a third line role and every time he's been used in a more prominent role he's produced accordingly. A young, consistent twenty goal scorer is going to get three million dollars without that versatility.

A variety of roles, sure but how successful after that first season and the emergence of some back issues later?... if he were more the type of player you're suggesting I'm not sure Burke trades him. I'm not saying he isn't versatile just not really good enough to be considered much more.

That 3 mil you're using in today's market context is not what I was talking about and I think you know that. We have a player who had no arbitration rights when the deal was signed and yet got a deal 6 times what would have been his qualifying offer ( which was screwed up by Chicago management and not sent in a timely manner giving him ufa status and grieved by the NHLPA ) He wouldn't have received near that if not for the error, Tallon had to 'get'r done' as it were...

Something else to consider, in today's market Philly traded a 1st and 3rd to TO for him then took a 2nd and 3rd to get rid of him ( 4 teams in 3 years says something to me too ).

I said he was a slightly over priced 3rd liner... with a bit of upside, not sure where the real argument is here. He was 7th in toi in the playoffs among forwards for Philly last year, when he went over I recall noting several times in the Versteeg thread that he was getting third line minutes with them too. During the year Chicago won the cup he was 7th in toi among forwards during the regular season ( with Dustin B listed as a dman ) but was 6th in toi among forwards during the playoffs so that's something ( though I suspect that was mostly due to Brouwers personal issues at the end of the season that saw him miss significant time while a healthy scratch during the playoffs too... he was ahead of Kris in toi for the regular season that year )

Agree to disagree.

 

[cw]

( 4 teams in 3 years says something to me too ).

Doesn't smell good, that's for sure.

I didn't care for the Stalberg deal (realizing Stalberg may not pan out at the time). I didn't care for Versteeg when he was here. I didn't care for what he did for Philly. But I love the fact that Burke got a 1st and a 3rd back effectively for what I feel and the multiple trades suggest was a mistake.

I don't dislike the guy though I haven't warmed up to his personality and he left me wondering if he was a "team player". He's far from a terrible hockey player. He helped Chicago win a Cup. I just never felt he was what our roster needed - we had lots of little guys with some skill. Nor did I think he was worth the price paid nor a great value for the dough he was being paid.

At the end of it all, to get a 1st and 3rd back for Stalberg and a couple of prospects unlikely to ever make the NHL - that's not a terrible return. Neither sets of assets come with a guarantee.

 

[Kin]

A variety of roles, sure but how successful after that first season and the emergence of some back issues later?... if he were more the type of player you're suggesting I'm not sure Burke trades him. I'm not saying he isn't versatile just not really good enough to be considered much more.

Successful enough, again, to be scoring at a 54 point pace while on a Toronto team where he wasn't playing with anything close to the sort of players he was playing with in a similar role in Chicago. When he's been a "third line" player in Chicago and in Philly he's been a third liner who scores at a 20 goal clip. So he's been a pretty remarkable offensive presence on a third line when used there and a very competent top six player when used there as well. My membership in the Brian Burke Am Never Wrong club is safe here, these are just facts.

That 3 mil you're using in today's market context is not what I was talking about and I think you know that. We have a player who had no arbitration rights when the deal was signed and yet got a deal 6 times what would have been his qualifying offer ( which was screwed up by Chicago management and not sent in a timely manner giving him ufa status and grieved by the NHLPA ) He wouldn't have received near that if not for the error, Tallon had to 'get'r done' as it were...

I think there's really only two ways in which a player can be over paid. Either he gets more money than he would on any sort of market(RFA or UFA) or the salary he signed for in years past isn't proportional to the value he brings a team. Neither apply to  Versteeg. There is no way that a player who produces at his level would ever realistically be signed for less and a third liner who scores 20 goals/top six forward who scores 55 points is, at least in my mind, worth three million dollars.

Something else to consider, in today's market Philly traded a 1st and 3rd to TO for him then took a 2nd and 3rd to get rid of him ( 4 teams in 3 years says something to me too ).

He's been on two teams that were in pretty bad cap situations and another that was mid-collapse. Did Chicago trade him? Sure. They also traded Andrew Ladd and Dustin Byfuglien. Did Philly trade him? Yes, as well as Jeff Carter and Mike Richards.

You could just as easily flip that around and say that in those three years Brian Burke, Paul Holmgren and Dale Tallon have all thought he'd be a good addition to their club and then got very good returns for him. While it's true that Florida took a seemingly less attractive package for him than they paid for the picks they got, when added together, may end up being just as good a package. A early second and early third vs. a late first and late third.

I said he was a slightly over priced 3rd liner... with a bit of upside, not sure where the real argument is here.

Because, by the same sort of description, I could call Jeff Carter a #2 centre or Patrice Bergeron a 3rd liner and leave out the actual positives of their play. Yes, on teams with exceptional forward depth Kris Versteeg can play a third line role because of his versatility and be very, very effective. How many third liners score 20 goals and 45 points regularly?

 

[Tigger]

( 4 teams in 3 years says something to me too ).

Doesn't smell good, that's for sure.

I didn't care for the Stalberg deal (realizing Stalberg may not pan out at the time). I didn't care for Versteeg when he was here. I didn't care for what he did for Philly. But I love the fact that Burke got a 1st and a 3rd back effectively for what I feel and the multiple trades suggest was a mistake.

I don't dislike the guy though I haven't warmed up to his personality and he left me wondering if he was a "team player". He's far from a terrible hockey player. He helped Chicago win a Cup. I just never felt he was what our roster needed - we had lots of little guys with some skill. Nor did I think he was worth the price paid nor a great value for the dough he was being paid.

At the end of it all, to get a 1st and 3rd back for Stalberg and a couple of prospects unlikely to ever make the NHL - that's not a terrible return. Neither sets of assets come with a guarantee.

Burke is a GM who seems bound to fix his mistakes and even admit to them sometimes which is something I like about him.

Found this earlier too...

The Kopecky-Versteeg-Bolland line began the game against the Flyers' top line of Simon Gagne, Jeff Carter and Mike Richards. But it wasn't until Versteeg tied the game at 4 in the second period, a goal he assisted on with Duncan Keith, that Kopecky settled down, he said.

"I was a little nervous the first couple shifts, but we stuck with it, and the nervousness came down a little bit," Kopecky said. "When Steeger got that goal, everything was kind of back to normal. You just can't think, you just have to go out there and react. That's when you're comfortable."

With the Hawks' top line of Jonathan Toews, Patrick Kane and Dustin Byfuglien uncharacteristically dormant, the second and third lines' play was critical.

"The third-line guys clamped down and got us back to what makes us a good team, checking first and battling out there," Sharp said. "When Kopy scored that goal, I thought we played our best hockey going forward."

He did contribute to a cup winning team and hooked up with his old buddy Tallon so I wish him well, Florida seems like a nice place to make millions playing a game.

 

[Kin]

"The third-line guys clamped down and got us back to what makes us a good team, checking first and battling out there," Sharp said. "When Kopy scored that goal, I thought we played our best hockey going forward."

Maybe that's the disagreement right there in a nutshell. You seem entirely focused on the fact that Kris Versteeg has played on the third line of some stacked teams, making him a "third liner", while I'm inclined to read that as someone saying that Kris Versteeg's play on the third line was integral to his team winning a cup.

Either way, I'm certainly glad we don't have a player like that on the Leafs.

 

[cw]

"The third-line guys clamped down and got us back to what makes us a good team, checking first and battling out there," Sharp said. "When Kopy scored that goal, I thought we played our best hockey going forward."

I bet I can find some quotes from 09-10 referring to Tim Thomas as Boston's backup too.

He effectively finished as a 3rd liner here after getting shots in the top 6. And he was definitely a 3rd liner in Philly. Now with Florida's weak/questionable roster, maybe he can find a spot in the top 6 and stick.

 

[Kin]

He effectively finished as a 3rd liner here after getting shots in the top 6. And he was definitely a 3rd liner in Philly. Now with Florida's weak/questionable roster, maybe he can find a spot in the top 6 and stick.

I changed that post because I didn't especially want to dwell there but, sure, to the extent that "third liner" is a dismissive label regardless of a player's abilities and contributions in that role or the circumstances that find them in that role, then sure. I'm not disputing Kris Versteeg has played on a third line. My point is that it's because he's as versatile as he is that he can be used in that role and still be effective and that's evidence of his value.

Cole Hamels is a #3 starter, Dwyane Wade is a #2 scoring option, Steve Young was a back-up QB.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Cody Franson was a #5-6.

 

[Bender]

"The third-line guys clamped down and got us back to what makes us a good team, checking first and battling out there," Sharp said. "When Kopy scored that goal, I thought we played our best hockey going forward."

Maybe that's the disagreement right there in a nutshell. You seem entirely focused on the fact that Kris Versteeg has played on the third line of some stacked teams, making him a "third liner", while I'm inclined to read that as someone saying that Kris Versteeg's play on the third line was integral to his team winning a cup.

Either way, I'm certainly glad we don't have a player like that on the Leafs.

How did this thread go from Viktor Stalberg to Kris Versteeg is a good hockey player? Frankly, I'm surprised this has become Versteeg's Apology of sorts. Anyway, for all his offensive ability, I am very happy Versteeg is no longer on the team. From what I saw, I felt he did not gel well with any of his teammates in a top 6 role and was a constant defensive liability. Great shot from the point and, imo, not much else.

 

[Kin]

Cody Franson was a #5-6.

Exactly. On teams where "Second liners" are Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Patrick Sharp and Marian Hossa then Kris Versteeg is a "third liner". On a team where the defense is so stacked that 3-4 defensemen are Shane O'Brien, Francis Bouillion, Jonathan Blum and star of A Fish Called Wanda and Wild, Wild West  Kevin Klein then even Cody Franson is a 5-6.

 

[Kin]

From what I saw, I felt he did not gel well with any of his teammates in a top 6 role and was a constant defensive liability.

See, now I think we're getting a little nutty. A guy who got regular PK time while on the third line of a cup winner was a constant defensive liability?

 

[Bender]

From what I saw, I felt he did not gel well with any of his teammates in a top 6 role and was a constant defensive liability.

See, now I think we're getting a little nutty. A guy who got regular PK time while on the third line of a cup winner was a constant defensive liability?

I watched roughly 60 Leafs games last year and that is indeed what I saw. Maybe it was due to a difference of system, lack of chemistry or something, but the player I saw did not fit in the Leaf's top 6, which is kind of surprising. I remember seeing him cough up the puck with Beauchemin-like consistency. An ill-timed pass here, a silly move there, taking unnecessary slashing penalties. To some degree the stats do fly in the face of this - Grabovski had a lot more penalties called on him. But from the games that I saw I came away more with "He's great on the power play... but has little chemistry with teammates" much like I came away from Francois Beauchemin thinking "He can be responsible, but does he ever make bad plays and make errant passes at the worst times."

To me his not fitting well with the team last year goes beyond statistics. Moreover, I don't think Burke and his management team (to think, Burke doesn't solely pull the trigger!) didn't see the Versteeg they saw in Chicago when he was playing here. If they did I can't imagine why they would trade him.

 

[Tigger]

My membership in the Brian Burke Am Never Wrong club is safe here, these are just facts.

You used to be so positive.

I think there's really only two ways in which a player can be over paid...

I'm saying he's a complementary player who was paid as a ufa while actually being an rfa finishing his entry level deal, that's it, that's all.

"The third-line guys clamped down and got us back to what makes us a good team, checking first and battling out there," Sharp said. "When Kopy scored that goal, I thought we played our best hockey going forward."

Maybe that's the disagreement right there in a nutshell. You seem entirely focused on the fact that Kris Versteeg has played on the third line of some stacked teams, making him a "third liner", while I'm inclined to read that as someone saying that Kris Versteeg's play on the third line was integral to his team winning a cup.

Either way, I'm certainly glad we don't have a player like that on the Leafs.

I guess you missed the part where I said he was a 3rd liner on a cup winning team, I understand how important that is, it's why I included the details about how his line was effective in a Cup final game but he also seemed to blow a chance to be more with a fairly challenged Toronto squad and couldn't crack Philly's top six either and that deserves some focus too, no? We're not talking about some random board comments about Thomas suddenly being a back up after a few off games.

On a team with Bozak as the top line center ( he of the Reading Royals ) Versteeg had every opportunity and didn't get it done. During his time in Toronto I thought his defensive play was lacklustre and his offensive play was one dimensional.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Well, PaulR did say that we love him sometimes and hate him other times, so a split about him just seems appropriate. I thought he was cocky, I hated the mouth guard thing, but he could play some decent hockey. He's definitely not a 1st liner, more of a second liner on a decent team and not near a defensive specialist either for third line. I don't miss him at all.

 

[Kin]

I watched roughly 60 Leafs games last year and that is indeed what I saw. Maybe it was due to a difference of system, lack of chemistry or something, but the player I saw did not fit in the Leaf's top 6, which is kind of surprising. I remember seeing him cough up the puck with Beauchemin-like consistency. An ill-timed pass here, a silly move there, taking unnecessary slashing penalties. To some degree the stats do fly in the face of this - Grabovski had a lot more penalties called on him. But from the games that I saw I came away more with "He's great on the power play... but has little chemistry with teammates" much like I came away from Francois Beauchemin thinking "He can be responsible, but does he ever make bad plays and make errant passes at the worst times."

He finished with 35 giveaways, fewer than Kessel, Bozak, Mac and Kessel. I'd be the first guy to say the giveaway stat is dicey but it's food for thought.

Did Versteeg develop great chemistry with anyone? No, probably not although as you say he did play well on the power play and I thought he played pretty well with Armstrong in the games where he did.

Is that Versteeg's fault? I don't think so. I think Kessel largely failed in the same way. I don't think it's either of their faults. I think that for speedy, talented wingers they need a good centre for chemistry to really develop and the Leafs were so bad in that area that it reflected poorly on everyone.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Cody Franson was a #5-6.

Exactly. On teams where "Second liners" are Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Patrick Sharp and Marian Hossa then Kris Versteeg is a "third liner". On a team where the defense is so stacked that 3-4 defensemen are Shane O'Brien, Francis Bouillion, Jonathan Blum and star of A Fish Called Wanda and Wild, Wild West  Kevin Klein then even Cody Franson is a 5-6.

How many 5-6 defensemen score top 50 for D in points?

 

[Kin]

You used to be so positive.

Hey, I said I'm a member.

I'm saying he's a complementary player who was paid as a ufa while actually being an rfa finishing his entry level deal, that's it, that's all.

And that strikes me as pretty esoteric definition of overpaid compared to market conditions or value being contributed when compared to salary.

I guess you missed the part where I said he was a 3rd liner on a cup winning team, I understand how important that is, it's why I included the details about how his line was effective in a Cup final game but he also seemed to blow a chance to be more with a fairly challenged Toronto squad and couldn't crack Philly's top six either and that deserves some focus too, no? We're not talking about some random board comments about Thomas suddenly being a back up after a few off games.

Yes, that absolutely deserves some focus. But, in focus, I keep coming back to the fact that the teams where Versteeg is on the third line is teams where the guys above him are ridiculously good. Does it bear mentioning that Versteeg isn't better than Briere or Carter or Mike Richards or Claude Giroux? Sure. Likewise, Pat Kane and Marian Hossa kept him on the third line. That's the thing to take away from that, not that he's a "third liner" in the way that Rob Niedermayer is a third liner. There's nothing inherently descriptive about playing on the third line and by labeling him as such you're tossing him into a widely disparate group.

Again, Tim Thomas was a back-up. Cole Hamels is his team's #3 starter. Those aren't legit descriptions though.

On a team with Bozak as the top line center ( he of the Reading Royals ) Versteeg had every opportunity and didn't get it done. During his time in Toronto I thought his defensive play was lacklustre and his offensive play was one dimensional.

See, that just strikes me as nuts. Versteeg got every opportunity because the guy who was his centre sucked? So he had every opportunity to play out of position and go against the other team's best defensive pairing?  He had every opportunity not to get decent set-ups?