Fighting in NHL

[OldTimeHockey]

Like I said, I get what you're saying and I agree. I just think it opens too much debate.

And, like I said, I just don't see that many instances where it isn't pretty clear. You generally don't see fighters go after guys that don't fight and such.

I'll give you the 'going after guys that don't fight' angle...

I was more commenting on your stance in the below quote:

I say, any time there's a fight that happens shortly after a faceoff or after a whistle or whenever that isn't at all connected to the play on the ice at the time should result in an automatic game misconduct for both participants

Who's to say it isn't connected to the play? What happens if it's connected to a play that occured 5 or 6 shifts ago? Has that not always been the code? To take down his number and get him later?

I mean, if Orr and Scott skate to circle, start jawing and drop the gloves, sure boot em out...But if Lupul and Schenn skate to the circle, start yapping and drop the gloves, there must of been a reason that they're pissed no? Call it an assumption on my part, but I can't see Lupul or Schenn fighting just for the heck of it.

 

[ZBBM]

It is so tiring to continually have the "its time to talk about it" messages from the media whenever they think its a great time to renew the discussions.  Its no better to talk abut gun violence, for example, the day after a mass shooting than the day before it happened.  If its worth talking about and worth doing anything about it, just do it.  Like today, not the day after some event to help sell it.

Hear hear.

 

[jdh1]

We don't need to bring up everything that's wrong in the world to prove our point.Opponent safety should be important in any sport.

And it is. That's why MMA fights have innumerable safety precautions that the NHL doesn't with regards to fighting. From things as fundamental as the relative give of a mat vs. ice or padded gloves vs. a bare fist to things as important as a doctor at ringside or strictly limiting who is allowed to fight in very tightly controlled weight classes and, perhaps most importantly, only letting fighters fight a handful of times a year. There's a reason why everywhere that allows fighting has it governed by a boxing or MMA commission.

As I said, you're confusing two separate issues but to the extent that fighting needs to be governed by safety precautions to make it acceptable MMA does a much better job of it than hockey does.

I understand what you are saying and you make some excellent points.However I refuse to believe that there are no concussions in cage fighting and other serious injuries,inspite of the fact that they make provision with referees that are quicker to respond to injury and have doctors readily available.
It's would be interesting to see the comparison between NHL fights and MMA fights which sport has the higher number of serious injuries.

 

[nutman]

I'm not a huge fan of banning fighting completely, as some of my favorite players are guys that can score, big hits, and few fights, guys like Wendel and Lucic etc. Hockey goons who have no skill and play 3 minutes a game I'm all for getting rid of.

Well put.  I am a fan of fighting, I have seen many fights over the years and some with great players. But I as well don't like the staged fights, they are what needs to go. I saw Messier go at it many times, you cant call him a goon.
Two players going at it is awesome, as long as they are hockey players, and not goons. Taking fighting out of the game is not the answer at all.
It will only bring on the stick work.

 

[Kin]

Taking fighting out of the game is not the answer at all.
It will only bring on the stick work.

So how come we don't hear about terrible stick penalties all the time in the NCAA?

 

[nutman]

Taking fighting out of the game is not the answer at all.
It will only bring on the stick work.

So how come we don't hear about terrible stick penalties all the time in the NCAA?

So Nik.. Tell me this.. how is that hockey is still so well liked after what 100+  years and fighting has been in it all along, yet its only a big issue these last few yrs. as for your comment on the NCAA who cares what happens there its not the NHL, whole different League. remove the staged fights and all is well again.

 

[Kin]

So Nik.. Tell me this.. how is that hockey is still so well liked after what 100+  years and fighting has been in it all along, yet its only a big issue these last few yrs.

My goodness. It's almost as if things have changed over the last 100 years. Be careful not to tell your carriage driver.

as for your comment on the NCAA who cares what happens there its not the NHL, whole different League.

It's evidence that human beings are fully capable of playing hockey without resorting to either fighting or stickwork. The european leagues also are evidence of that. You can stick your head in the sand all you want but reality, as always, remains your committed enemy.

 

[Corn Flake]

It's evidence that human beings are fully capable of playing hockey without resorting to either fighting or stickwork. The european leagues also are evidence of that. You can stick your head in the sand all you want but reality, as always, remains your committed enemy.

There is a ton of stick work in some of the Euro leagues. 

most recent description was Paul Maurice the other night talking about what the KHL was like without fighting and how nasty it was.  the point was around the whole idea that fighting helps keep the "rats" and the stick work down. I'm not sure I agree with that theory but the point being that those league suffer from a lot of hacking and whacking.

 

[Kin]

There is a ton of stick work in some of the Euro leagues. 

most recent description was Paul Maurice the other night talking about what the KHL was like without fighting and how nasty it was.  the point was around the whole idea that fighting helps keep the "rats" and the stick work down. I'm not sure I agree with that theory but the point being that those league suffer from a lot of hacking and whacking.

I wasn't specifically referring to KHL so much as I was Sweden or Finland(Russia isn't in the EU) so I can't comment as to what things are like there but even then I doubt the truth there. I don't doubt that you see slashes and whatever there the way you do everywhere but I think that we'd hear about an especially vicious stick penalty over there.

 

[Bates]

Nik you really should take in an NCAA hockey game if you don't think it's dirty hockey.  The cross checking and hitting from behind and high sticking is pretty gross in those games.  I used to be a fan of fighting but find I am tending toward the other side these days.  I have no issue with two players who are settling a score with each other dropping their gloves but I have really come to dislike the "fighting machines" that the game now have. 

Watching these gladiators almost kill each other nightly just does not appeal to me.  I have heard a couple possible solutions.  1) some form of game misconduct instantly if you play under so many minutes a night or have so many fighting majors.  2)  enforce a rule that each player dressed must play a certain minimum number of minutes per game.  Either would see the "goon" all but disappear 

 

[Kin]

Nik you really should take in an NCAA hockey game if you don't think it's dirty hockey.

I have. I don't think it's any dirtier, on the aggregate, than any other hockey.

 

[Bullfrog]

So Nik.. Tell me this.. how is that hockey is still so well liked after what 100+  years and fighting has been in it all along, yet its only a big issue these last few yrs. as for your comment on the NCAA who cares what happens there its not the NHL, whole different League. remove the staged fights and all is well again.

I love hockey, but I dislike the fighting part. But don't dislike fighting enough to make me stop watching hockey.

Hockey is so well liked because it's entertaining and it'd still be entertaining without fighting.

 

[Bullfrog]

I want fighting out of the game completely and I want it gone now.

Hockey is a very skilled sport and it's that skill and physical prowess that I enjoy watching. I'd much rather see a skilled player on the fourth line then someone who's there primarily to be an enforcer.

I'd start with the game misconduct and then suspensions.

 

[TML fan]

Fighting will never be completely eliminated. People fight in rec hockey. I think what we might see is a gradual elimination of the staged fight and the traditional enforcer role, but fighting will always have its place in the game. The game lends itself to that reality. All they can really do is reduce its frequency.

 

[louisstamos]

Taking fighting out of the game is not the answer at all.
It will only bring on the stick work.

So how come we don't hear about terrible stick penalties all the time in the NCAA?

So Nik.. Tell me this.. how is that hockey is still so well liked after what 100+  years and fighting has been in it all along, yet its only a big issue these last few yrs. as for your comment on the NCAA who cares what happens there its not the NHL, whole different League. remove the staged fights and all is well again.

Just out of curiosity nutman - how do you feel about Olympic hockey?  The World Juniors?  Because there isn't any fighting in any of those at it's just as physical and intense level of hockey as the NHL (if not more so).

 

[jdh1]

To ban fighting in hockey,I think you would have to ban hitting as well.It's the hitting that stirs up emotions to have a fight.
If your team mate that's got offensive talent and he gets run or hurt by a big hit there is going to be that retaliation.

The game would have to be changed a lot to have no fighting.I don't think that's going to happen any time soon.

 

[bustaheims]

To ban fighting in hockey,I think you would have to ban hitting as well.It's the hitting that stirs up emotions to have a fight.

People who are pro-fighting love to bring up this argument, but there's absolutely nothing to support it other than conjecture. International hockey has plenty of physical play and hitting and manages quite well without fighting. Same with the NCAA and every European league. Hitting and fighting are not inexorably linked.

 

[bustaheims]

There is a ton of stick work in some of the Euro leagues. 

most recent description was Paul Maurice the other night talking about what the KHL was like without fighting and how nasty it was.  the point was around the whole idea that fighting helps keep the "rats" and the stick work down. I'm not sure I agree with that theory but the point being that those league suffer from a lot of hacking and whacking.

It's not like there's an absence of that kind of stuff in the NHL, either. There's plenty of questionable stick work and dangerous hits in every game on the NHL schedule. It's more that the presence of fighting makes people feel that there's more "justice" done in those instances, because there's usually something that happens pretty instantly. The "rats" are still very much in play - always have been and likely always will be. They still take chops at people, deliver crosschecks in battles along the boards and in front of the net, hit people from behind or when they're in other vulnerable positions, etc. It's not going to increase because fighting goes away, it's just going to become more noticeable, because people will be looking for it in order to justify their misguided belief that fighting kept that stuff out of the game.

 

[Kin]

Fighting will never be completely eliminated. People fight in rec hockey. I think what we might see is a gradual elimination of the staged fight and the traditional enforcer role, but fighting will always have its place in the game. The game lends itself to that reality. All they can really do is reduce its frequency.

That's true to a sense. Guys throw punches in baseball, basketball and football from time to time so those sports haven't "eliminated" fighting either. It's just that they penalize them appropriately.

 

[louisstamos]

Fighting will never be completely eliminated. People fight in rec hockey. I think what we might see is a gradual elimination of the staged fight and the traditional enforcer role, but fighting will always have its place in the game. The game lends itself to that reality. All they can really do is reduce its frequency.

That's true to a sense. Guys throw punches in baseball, basketball and football so those sports haven't "eliminated" fighting either. It's just that they penalize them appropriately.

Yup.  This exactly.  You'll never "ban" fighting.  But the penalty for doing it will be much stiffer.