Game 77: Hurricanes @ Maple Leafs, 7:00pm, Will Rita MacNeil sing ?

[Zee]

I don't know how people were suggesting that Cam Ward plays the same style that Allaire teaches.  That's not correct.  Cam Ward plays a hybrid butterfly style, he actually attempts to use his glove to catch the puck many times.  Allaire teaches BLOCKING.  He'd rather have the goalies block the puck, make yourself big in the net.  They are not the same style at all.

 

[L K]

You asked if the goals were deflected. I say who cares? If you can't ask your goalie to make a difficult save, then you might as well just tie a jersey to the net and pray. That's pretty much how I view Allaire's style anyway.

I think that's pretty short sighted frankly and obviously I give a crap about how the goals went in.

The goalies are basically just dropping and expecting the puck to hit them. They are committing early and are not really prepared to react to where the shot is actually going.

So, either the style is flawed or the goalies are flawed. Or both. There have been way too many bad goals this year, as well as some comments about "typical Allaire goalies" for me to not question the way these guys are being coached. It's not like he's helping the situation. I'm starting to think the game has passed him by.

So it might be the goalies, or the coaching but you're not sure except you are. The game has passed Allaire by? Where do you get the footing for that pov?

The Leafs have the most inexperienced goalie duo on the league, probably has more to do with that than anything else.

I just look at our goalies, and the complete lack of improvement under Allaire and ask if he's doing a good job. Allaire had most of his success in a different era. The game has changed now and I'm looking at how our goalies are getting beat and asking if his style is effective in today's game. Just look at the goals last night. Particularly the first one. Why is he hugging the post? If he just squares up and reacts to the shot, it doesn't go in, deflected or not. Gustavsson is anticipating the shot to go somewhere it doesn't, and can't react because he's already committed to one location. That is an Allaire trait, and it's a flawed one in my opinion.

The point is, maybe they would be better goalies if they didn't play like that? Or maybe they just suck? I don't know for sure. Unlike you, I don't have all the answers.

I think legitimate questions need to be asked.  Allaire failing to make a top tier goaltender out of the Leafs players doesn't negate what he has done in the past, but to use Giguere and Roy as evidence that he's still a great goaltending coach who can get the most out of his pupils seems a little disingenuous. 

Not every coach is going to be successful forever, not every coach is going to be able to make it work in every environment, not every style of play will be relevant until the end of time. 

Everything else is getting put under the microscope right now, and with goaltending being one of the bigger flaws on the team, I think Allaire needs to be looked at closely too. From a recruiting standpoint, he has done his job admirably.  He also seems to work well with the goaltending "ego" as I haven't heard any of the goaltenders in the organization criticizing him as a coach, but in the end, it comes down to results and whether it is fair or not, the GM sets the expectations on the goaltenders and he needs his goaltending coach to make those expectations happen.  I dont' think either of Reimer/Gus have been railed on for a lack of effort so it isn't like Allaire is desperately trying to get them to work on things and they won't.

 

[cw]

I doubt it, the market's not that strong on goaltending, someone will pick him up if he makes it.

Maybe. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a better offer from the SEL or ever the KHL than he does from an NHL team, though.

I'm down with 'maybe', I have a hunch that those leagues won't matter to him as much, fwiw. We'll see I guess.

I'd be shocked if Gustavsson is back in the NHL next year. He's certainly no kid, he's had a few seasons to adapt to the North American game and has pretty much demonstrated a lack of the necessary skill or consistency to be a starter. He's also shown a keen inability to sit for extended stretches and remain any bit sharp, which should kill any potential value as a backup.

He should just go back home to the SEL and enjoy piling up stats in a low-scoring hockey league.

I disagree with this pretty square.

I think Brian Elliott is a perfect example of why he has a good shot of getting another NHL contract.  He got contracts with SV% <.895 and now look what he is doing.  Some team will see his size and "Raw potential" and chalk his results up to a bad team affecting his performance.

I thought of the same guy. It's guys like that who must give goalie scouts nightmares. After posting very roughly Gustavsson-like results, St. Louis signed him for $600k as a 26 yr old UFA last summer when the Avs walked away from him.

He's probably got the Jennings & Crozier trophies locked up with his league leading .943 save%, 1.48GAA and probably deserves some consideration for the Vezina. Now one could say "well, he plays with the top defensive club in the league" and that would be true. But it doesn't completely explain better numbers than Dominik Hasek or Patrick Roy put up during their careers during the clutch and grab era that favored better save%s.

Nothing in his past indicated such a performance was to be expected.

Since the lockout, I've never seen so many examples of things like this. For example:
Niemi, who never won a playoff round in his pro career suddenly is good enough to win a Cup.

Tim Thomas, drafted in the 9th round by Quebec in 1994, rattles around every league on the planet but the NHL doing little of note until he shows up in Boston at age 31 and goes on to win the Jennings, Vezina, Conn Smythe and a Cup .

Cam Ward completes his rookie regular season with a .882 save% 3.68 GAA and goes on to win the Conn Smythe in the playoffs leading his team to a Cup. In the Cup finals, Ward was up against an undrafted goalie, Roloson, whose first pro accomplishment was making it to the AHL all star game at the age of 31.

Who would have predicted Mike Leighton & .899save% Brian Boucher would have been good enough to get the Flyers to the finals in 2010?

I could go on and on.

Particularly since the lockout, this is by far the most unpredictable position in the sport. It's almost crazy.

 

[bustaheims]

When it comes to Elliott, let's keep some things in perspective here - when it's all said and done, he'll have started less than 40 games this season. His numbers are fantastic, yes, but, how much Vezina consideration should a guy who started less than half his team's games really get?

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

This Ashton experiment has to end. Just send him down to the AHL. He looks absolutely useless on offense right now. Glad he deserves to be on the 1st line.

It's his first shot on the top line, jeebus.

That and, we want to lose right?

I never want them to lose but I appreciate it after the game at this point.

He hasn't looked like Caputi 2.0 to me but I suppose part of the point of giving him lots of ice is to find out.

Who else to put up there anyways?  Somebody pointed out that Mac doesn't add much grit, the line is soft as butter with those three together, and we already know how the Connolly experiment turned out this year...

At this point it doesn't really matter. I'm glad they are giving the kid a chance. I'd really like to see a Frattin, Kadri, Ashton line in action. The tree of em have a mean streak in their game.

You said this last week and I agreed with it then but, y'know what, it only just happened tonight. Ashton played 5:51 toi against the Devils in their next game on the 23rd, mostly with Grabovski on a double shift. Lombardi got the lions share of es toi with Kessel and Bozak.

Their next game against the Rags Ashton got 2:16 toi.

Even tonight, their 3rd game since you said that, Ashton has only played about about half of the first line shifts. Did you mean give the kid a chance and it doesn't matter or not?

I was all for giving Ashton more time but he just looks really lost out there. He has no offensive game to speak of so far and given a choice between Kadri or him being up I would chose Kadri.

 

[cw]

Back when Quinn was GM the question about Leafs goalie coaches came up and I looked into it. Up to that point in time, the Leafs used goalie consultants for particular goalies rather than a full time goalie coach. Guys like Palmateer, Wamsley, Vincent Riendeau are names I recall who chipped in as floaters for advice along with their scouting rolls in the case of Wamsley & Palmateer.

I also looked around the rest of the league (all the teams) to see what they were doing. I've followed it somewhat regularly since trying to better understand the position, the philosophies, techniques, etc so I would guess I developed an above average knowledge about the role.

If someone asked me to name the top 15 NHL goalie coaches and what team they worked for, I couldn't do so without looking them up and I'd be guessing after the top few. If you have some doubts, name 10 NHL goalie coaches better than Allaire. I bet 99.9% of Leafs fan couldn't or do so convincingly.

With that in mind, I find some of the criticism of Allaire kind of mind boggling or over the top. He's one of the best goalie coaches in the world period if you take the time to really look into it.

I wrote this post about Reimer's progress under Allaire:
http://tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=829.msg61316;topicseen#msg61316

I wrote other remarks about Allaire:
http://tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=43.msg57561;topicseen#msg57561

http://tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=43.msg57551;topicseen#msg57551

http://tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=43.msg57536;topicseen#msg57536

There has been some discussion in the media about the style Allaire teaches. Some of those discussions may be legitimate when they've come from other goalie coaches like Steve McKichan (past Leafs goalie coach). But I'm not buying Allaire hasn't adjusted with the times nor that he's incapable of helping a good goalie talent progress.

As I mentioned in some of those posts, Gustavsson, Scrivens & Rynnas were all highly sought UFA goalie prospects we wouldn't have without Allaire. As none of them came with a Vezina guarantee, it will take years to find out if they're capable of being NHL starters.

 

[cw]

When it comes to Elliott, let's keep some things in perspective here - when it's all said and done, he'll have started less than 40 games this season. His numbers are fantastic, yes, but, how much Vezina consideration should a guy who started less than half his team's games really get?

I have similar concerns. I don't even know if he'll be a finalist. But I do think his name will at least come up in the conversation and I think that's fair.

It's still rather incredible that the Sens chuck him as do the Avs (and from what I saw, legitimately as he didn't show much). He signs as a $600k UFA with what was the lowly 2010-11 non-playoff team St Louis Blues. Nine months later, he's on top of the NHL setting what might be a modern record pace in save%.  Nobody could have foreseen that - not even the Blues.

 

[Bonsixx]

Missed the game last night, but just saw the highlights. The first goal wasn't Gustavsson's fault, but man, those other two are pretty inexcusable.

 

[Tigger]

The point is, maybe they would be better goalies if they didn't play like that? Or maybe they just suck? I don't know for sure. Unlike you, I don't have all the answers.

I think you would have to be at practices and hear/see how that's being handled to say for sure, personally I think the two are very different goaltenders with not a whole lot of experience in the league. They also happen to backstop one of the poorer defensive teams in the league too.

Laying it at Allaires feet without a lot of investigation seems premature to me.

Yeah, I have all the answers, carry on.

 

[Kin]

As I mentioned in some of those posts, Gustavsson, Scrivens & Rynnas were all highly sought UFA goalie prospects we wouldn't have without Allaire.

I think that's a bit of a leap. I know they all mentioned Allaire when they signed but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have signed with the Leafs if the Leafs had had another well regarded goaltending coach. Burke as a salesman, the fact that there's a great opportunity in Toronto for a goalie to emerge...I'm going to think that'll be more of a factor than who the coach is.

Don't get me wrong, I think the importance of the goaltender coach is being wildly overrated here by the people criticizing Allaire.

 

[Tigger]

I was all for giving Ashton more time but he just looks really lost out there. He has no offensive game to speak of so far and given a choice between Kadri or him being up I would chose Kadri.

So how much time did you give him before pulling the plug, one shift? Two? You said that at 7:40 pm.

It wasn't about Kadri either, you said give him a chance and then when gets the chance you gave him practically no time before you concluded the experiment had failed.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

I was all for giving Ashton more time but he just looks really lost out there. He has no offensive game to speak of so far and given a choice between Kadri or him being up I would chose Kadri.

So how much time did you give him before pulling the plug, one shift? Two? You said that at 7:40 pm.

It wasn't about Kadri either, you said give him a chance and then when gets the chance you gave him practically no time before you concluded the experiment had failed.

I'm actually totally confused.

I posted this:

At this point it doesn't really matter. I'm glad they are giving the kid a chance. I'd really like to see a Frattin, Kadri, Ashton line in action. The tree of em have a mean streak in their game.

On March 22nd, at around noon.

I posted this:

This Ashton experiment has to end. Just send him down to the AHL. He looks absolutely useless on offense right now. Glad he deserves to be on the 1st line.

On March 27th.

Between that time I saw him be absolutely useless in the games versus the Devils and Rangers (that coupled with his total lack of offense in all the games prior) so I changed my opinion. Or am I not allowed to do that?

 

[Tigger]

Between that time I saw him be absolutely useless in the games versus the Devils and Rangers (that coupled with his total lack of offense in all the games prior) so I changed my opinion. Or am I not allowed to do that?

You should go back and read what I said earlier about Ashton and the games from then to now.

http://tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=856.msg64300#msg64300

...where I said this...

Ashton played 5:51 toi against the Devils in their next game on the 23rd, mostly with Grabovski on a double shift. Lombardi got the lions share of es toi with Kessel and Bozak.

Their next game against the Rags Ashton got 2:16 toi.

He didn't get his shot on the top line until last night and had only played a handful of shifts on the top line by the time you posted.

Sure, you're allowed to change your opinion just like anybody else but all you're doing is proving that you aren't really watching the games or considering how the roster is being deployed. You've changed your opinion on practically no evidence at all, it's hard to be useful on roughly 8 mins toi over two games being deployed on the 4th line.

 

[TML fan]

The point is, maybe they would be better goalies if they didn't play like that? Or maybe they just suck? I don't know for sure. Unlike you, I don't have all the answers.

I think you would have to be at practices and hear/see how that's being handled to say for sure, personally I think the two are very different goaltenders with not a whole lot of experience in the league. They also happen to backstop one of the poorer defensive teams in the league too.

Laying it at Allaires feet without a lot of investigation seems premature to me.

Yeah, I have all the answers, carry on.

I think Allaire's track record with Toronto is enough to at least raise the question. I'm not laying everything at his feet either. I've mentioned enough times that our goalies suck.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

Between that time I saw him be absolutely useless in the games versus the Devils and Rangers (that coupled with his total lack of offense in all the games prior) so I changed my opinion. Or am I not allowed to do that?

You should go back and read what I said earlier about Ashton and the games from then to now.

http://tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=856.msg64300#msg64300

...where I said this...

Ashton played 5:51 toi against the Devils in their next game on the 23rd, mostly with Grabovski on a double shift. Lombardi got the lions share of es toi with Kessel and Bozak.

Their next game against the Rags Ashton got 2:16 toi.

He didn't get his shot on the top line until last night and had only played a handful of shifts on the top line by the time you posted.

Sure, you're allowed to change your opinion just like anybody else but all you're doing is proving that you aren't really watching the games or considering how the roster is being deployed. You've changed your opinion on practically no evidence at all, it's hard to be useful on roughly 8 mins toi over two games being deployed on the 4th line.

You would be right so why is he even up here and not getting more minutes in the AHL?

 

[Tigger]

You would be right so why is he even up here and not getting more minutes in the AHL?

Not sure, you'd probably have to ask Carlyle that, though that's not what I was talking about.

I suppose part of the answer to that would be that he's a big bodied winger that doesn't seem to mind the tough going and the Leafs need more of that, especially with Army out of the picture for all intents and purposes this year. The staff might be having a look to see what he can do in a variety of situations and figure out his skillset/appropriate roster position going forward.

 

[KW Sluggo]

For those who remember Jay Harrison, it is nice to see that he has carved out a career for himself. That was his 9th goal of the season which is better than many of our blueliners who are consuming a lot more cap space.