General Leafs Talk

[Bender]

If you're going to say something as damning as the word bare at least know what you're talking about.

Edit* Also I'm sure I forgot some... feel free to chime in anyone if I did.

Before you get too heated on the subject, I think it's important to point out that the issue is pretty clearly how the Leafs do in terms of their prospects in relation to other teams. Obviously saying "the cupboard is bare" doesn't mean a team has no prospects, the issue is whether or not the list of names you just came up with stacks up well to other teams.

I mean, take Holzer. He's 24 and looks pretty fringe-y right now. I'd bet any team in the league has someone comparable playing in the AHL.

Oh yeah, definitely agree here, but outside of the Kessel deal I don't think we gave up too many picks that could have yielded top flight talent. The general wisdom is that unless you draft earlier on in the first round then you won't be getting an elite level prospect.

How many chances did we have to draft that high outside of the Kessel deal? Maybe its our eye on talent? But maybe I think we're undervaluing some of our prospects. There aren't too many from recent drafts that I would argue WILL become top flight NHL talent right now - there are too many variables.

And hey, Hockeys Future seems to think we're in pretty good shape. Not that they're an authority or anything, but I guess they can be used as a litmus test.

 

[Corn Flake]

Yeah, right?

I mean, how can saying "Gardiner isn't a prospect anymore" mean anything of value? He was a prospect to start the season and he's panning out. That's far better than simply being a prospect. I don't get how stating Gardiner isn't a prospect makes the argument that the cupboard is bare STRONGER. It's the classic HockeysFuture nonsense.

So we have:

- Prospects like Gardiner, Gunarsson, Reimer, graduating to the NHL and playing significant minutes and roles.  Other previous graduates include Schenn, Gus, Bozak.

- Aulie, Frattin, Kadri, Colborne and a few others right on the cusp as per the list posted earlier.

- An AHL team loaded with young prospects and is one of the best in the league.

- Prospects all over various leagues playing well, some like McKegg who are dominating. 

I don't know how all that translates into any kind of glass half empty attitude.  The development system and scouting from the bottom up seems to be working very well. 

 

[Bender]

Yeah, right?

I mean, how can saying "Gardiner isn't a prospect anymore" mean anything of value? He was a prospect to start the season and he's panning out. That's far better than simply being a prospect. I don't get how stating Gardiner isn't a prospect makes the argument that the cupboard is bare STRONGER. It's the classic HockeysFuture nonsense.

So we have:

- Prospects like Gardiner, Gunarsson, Reimer, graduating to the NHL and playing significant minutes and roles.  Other previous graduates include Schenn, Gus, Bozak.

- Aulie, Frattin, Kadri, Colborne and a few others right on the cusp as per the list posted earlier.

- An AHL team loaded with young prospects and is one of the best in the league.

- Prospects all over various leagues playing well, some like McKegg who are dominating. 

I don't know how all that translates into any kind of glass half empty attitude.  The development system and scouting from the bottom up seems to be working very well.

And you know, the fact that we are, year over year, able to land some free agent prospects shouldn't be overlooked either. Granted, most don't pan out, and that's fine, but I'm very happy that no stone is being unturned! AFAIK Cujo and Belfour were undrafted. And don't look now, but Owuya is really lighting up the A. He'd be close to top 5 in SV% and 4th in GAA.

 

[Strangelove]

Yeah, right?

I mean, how can saying "Gardiner isn't a prospect anymore" mean anything of value? He was a prospect to start the season and he's panning out. That's far better than simply being a prospect. I don't get how stating Gardiner isn't a prospect makes the argument that the cupboard is bare STRONGER. It's the classic HockeysFuture nonsense.

So we have:

- Prospects like Gardiner, Gunarsson, Reimer, graduating to the NHL and playing significant minutes and roles.  Other previous graduates include Schenn, Gus, Bozak.

- Aulie, Frattin, Kadri, Colborne and a few others right on the cusp as per the list posted earlier.

- An AHL team loaded with young prospects and is one of the best in the league.

- Prospects all over various leagues playing well, some like McKegg who are dominating. 

I don't know how all that translates into any kind of glass half empty attitude.  The development system and scouting from the bottom up seems to be working very well.

I never said that our system doesn't put players in the league.  Obviously that's true.  But relative to other teams--particularly teams that have had extended spells of losing--I just don't see the levels of prospect talent that you'd expect for a team that has been as bad as ours has.  My original point was that you'd think we, of all teams, would have the sort of young talent a rebuilding team like Columbus would want in exchange for Nash.  But guys in the know like McKenzie seem to be suggesting in no uncertain terms that we don't.

With an NHL team as mediocre as the Leafs currently are, that has to be a concern.

 

[Kin]

Oh yeah, definitely agree here, but outside of the Kessel deal I don't think we gave up too many picks that could have yielded top flight talent. The general wisdom is that unless you draft earlier on in the first round then you won't be getting an elite level prospect.

How many chances did we have to draft that high outside of the Kessel deal? Maybe its our eye on talent? But maybe I think we're undervaluing some of our prospects. There aren't too many from recent drafts that I would argue WILL become top flight NHL talent right now - there are too many variables.

And hey, Hockeys Future seems to think we're in pretty good shape. Not that they're an authority or anything, but I guess they can be used as a litmus test.

I'll be honest, outside of your last paragraph I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make here and even with the last paragraph I think it's fair to say that your opinion on HF seems a little hard to pick up on what with their "nonsense" in one post and then them being a litmus test in the next.

I don't know where the Leafs rank leaguewide. I think they have a number of good prospects but I think they're lacking both in top-end prospects as well as in good young NHL players who are more likely to be the centrepiece of any trade.

Would I describe the Leafs cupboard as bare? Probably not. I don't think, however, that they're particularly well suited to make a deal for Nash. I don't know that they have that one young asset to build a trade around that Columbus would really feel good about getting when they trade the face of their franchise.

 

[Tigger]

I think it's a real testament to how poorly this team has been managed over the past 8 or so years that even now, this far into a "rebuild" (or "retool" or whatever), we still likely don't, according to most pundits, have the players it would take to get a Nash-type deal done.  There really aren't many "good" contracts on the team's books right now, at least amongst the players in their free agent years.  And the prospect cupboard is pretty bare too.

It's hard to argue with the team being poorly managed going back to JFJ, tough to hold the current group accountable for that too though.

 

[Kin]

It's hard to argue with the team being poorly managed going back to JFJ, tough to hold the current group accountable for that too though.

Except, I mean, let's not mince words about it. The reason this team doesn't have the high end prospects despite being really bad the last few years is the Kessel trade. If this team has Seguin/Hamilton nobody is throwing that accusation at them.

 

[Bender]

Oh yeah, definitely agree here, but outside of the Kessel deal I don't think we gave up too many picks that could have yielded top flight talent. The general wisdom is that unless you draft earlier on in the first round then you won't be getting an elite level prospect.

How many chances did we have to draft that high outside of the Kessel deal? Maybe its our eye on talent? But maybe I think we're undervaluing some of our prospects. There aren't too many from recent drafts that I would argue WILL become top flight NHL talent right now - there are too many variables.

And hey, Hockeys Future seems to think we're in pretty good shape. Not that they're an authority or anything, but I guess they can be used as a litmus test.

I'll be honest, outside of your last paragraph I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make here and even with the last paragraph I think it's fair to say that your opinion on HF seems a little hard to pick up on what with their "nonsense" in one post and then them being a litmus test in the next.

I don't know where the Leafs rank leaguewide. I think they have a number of good prospects but I think they're lacking both in top-end prospects as well as in good young NHL players who are more likely to be the centrepiece of any trade.

Would I describe the Leafs cupboard as bare? Probably not. I don't think, however, that they're particularly well suited to make a deal for Nash. I don't know that they have that one young asset to build a trade around that Columbus would really feel good about getting when they trade the face of their franchise.

In one sense, I don't agree with HF taking a prospect off the prospect list even if they've played very briefly in the league: i.e. Gardiner isn't a prospect because he's playing. I would argue he is considered a prospect because the team still doesn't have a good feeling of where his development path will go: He is a prospect playing in the NHL, but I guess that is more a matter of how to define "what is a prospect" than anything.

However, they do have rankings that I think do make some sense even with my perceived flaw, and I haven't seen any other places that have organizational prospect rankings to the degree that HF has, so I'll give them some credit there.

Re: Blue chip prospects. I don't think there was much opportunity to add too many, but this may have been a product of the retool Burke decided to use rather than a firesale and rebuild.

I just get the sense that the Blue Chip prospect term (which is one of the things used to judge the quality of our prospects) is used very liberally these days for any player with hype (Angelo Esposito back in the day) Unless you're Nugent-Hopkins, Steven Stamkos and a few others, I don't think the blue chip label should be used.

However, even compared to other organizations I don't think we fare too badly. Some are far and away better, but I'd say we are at least middle of the pack or slightly better, just some prospects carry hype around them that makes us view another organization's prospect pool as better. One case where we are clearly outclassed in prospects, for example, is Edmonton, but outside of that I don't think we're really that far behind in terms of quality of prospects.

 

[Tigger]

It's hard to argue with the team being poorly managed going back to JFJ, tough to hold the current group accountable for that too though.

Except, I mean, let's not mince words about it. The reason this team doesn't have the high end prospects despite being really bad the last few years is the Kessel trade. If this team has Seguin/Hamilton nobody is throwing that accusation at them.

Sure, that's fair, just thought it was worth delineating between the two.

 

[Kin]

In one sense, I don't agree with HF taking a prospect off the prospect list even if they've played very briefly in the league: i.e. Gardiner isn't a prospect because he's playing. I would argue he is considered a prospect because the team still doesn't have a good feeling of where his development path will go: He is a prospect playing in the NHL, but I guess that is more a matter of how to define "what is a prospect" than anything.

Well, for starters that doesn't really seem to be the case at HF. When they last did their organizational rankings they still included guys like Reimer and Kadri as prospects despite Kadri getting a cup of coffee last season and Reimer getting a fair chunk of time. Even right now in their list of prospects you have guys like Gardiner, Frattin and Colborne who played this year but also Kadri and Aulie who've played in parts of two seasons so it doesn't seem as though you're entirely right about who they consider prospects.

However, they do have rankings that I think do make some sense even with my perceived flaw, and I haven't seen any other places that have organizational prospect rankings to the degree that HF has, so I'll give them some credit there.

To be honest, when you seem to disagree so fundamentally with them on the fundamental issue of who should or shouldn't count as a prospect then giving any sort of credence to their organizational rankings strikes me as being more a result of their rankings reflecting how you want to see the team's system and less about any actual validity to their methods.

For what it's worth though, their organizational rankings seem to be about 6 months old and, in their summation of the Leafs organization, they seem to share the POV that the system lacks high end talent.

Re: Blue chip prospects. I don't think there was much opportunity to add too many, but this may have been a product of the retool Burke decided to use rather than a firesale and rebuild.

Well, there's no maybe about it. The Kessel trade, the Phaneuf trade and even the general strategy of going for the quick fix are the major reasons the team lacks that high end talent.

I just get the sense that the Blue Chip prospect term (which is one of the things used to judge the quality of our prospects) is used very liberally these days for any player with hype (Angelo Esposito back in the day) Unless you're Nugent-Hopkins, Steven Stamkos and a few others, I don't think the blue chip label should be used.

I think that's just a semantic issue really. Regardless of what word you want to use for it there's a pretty good consensus that the Leafs don't have any top of the line prospects. On HF's list of the top 50 prospects in the league, the Leafs only guy is Kadri at #21. Obviously that's not bible law but it seems to fit in with what most people are saying about the Leafs and their ability to put together a package for Nash.

However, even compared to other organizations I don't think we fare too badly. Some are far and away better, but I'd say we are at least middle of the pack or slightly better, just some prospects carry hype around them that makes us view another organization's prospect pool as better. One case where we are clearly outclassed in prospects, for example, is Edmonton, but outside of that I don't think we're really that far behind in terms of quality of prospects.

Preferring depth over high-end talent is fine, I don't know if there's a correct answer there, but in a situation like this where the issue is trading for a player of Nash's stature it seems to be pretty unanimous that having that high end talent is what's needed to make the trade happen.

Again, I really don't see the Leafs having any particular asset that would be the deciding factor in a Nash trade. I don't think throwing a bunch of lesser ones at the issue gets the job done.

 

[Bender]

[quote author=Saint Nik] Again, I really don't see the Leafs having any particular asset that would be the deciding factor in a Nash trade. I don't think throwing a bunch of lesser ones at the issue gets the job done.
[/quote]

Fair enough! Well said, and thanks for the responses!

 

[Zee]

First set - excellent
7-2-1

Second set
4-5-1

Third set
5-4-1

Fourth set
4-4-2

Fifth set
5-4-1

Sixth set
4-5-1

Next 10:
San Jose
Washington
Florida
@Chicago
@Montreal
Boston  -- Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
@Pittsburgh
Philadelphia
@Washington
@Florida

Well that last set of 10 left me less than impressed.  It's crunch time now.  22-22-6 since the first 10 games of the season.  :-/

 

[armche123]

lets get #30 out of the way Leafs! LETS GO!

 

[AvroArrow]

Hmm...I see a reversing pattern...we'll go 7-2-1 over this next ten.

 

[maplesyrup]

Hmm...I see a reversing pattern...we'll go 7-2-1 over this next ten.

Good eye, Avro... Giddy-up!

 

[Zee]

Hmm...I see a reversing pattern...we'll go 7-2-1 over this next ten.

Good eye, Avro... Giddy-up!

LOL I didn't even notice that.  Imagine that, out of nowhere in the middle of this mess the Leafs win 7 out of 10. 

 

[Redleaf]

Hmm...I see a reversing pattern...we'll go 7-2-1 over this next ten.

Good eye, Avro... Giddy-up!

LOL I didn't even notice that.  Imagine that, out of nowhere in the middle of this mess the Leafs win 7 out of 10. 

Once this trade deadline passes, it wouldn't surprise me if the Leafs start to play a hell of a lot better. As if the pressure of playing in TO isn't enough for these young guys, when you add being in the thick of a playoff run (which would be their 1st appearance in 8 years) and the approaching deadline day. (which has become all encompassing in Toronto) it's no wonder they've gone on a tailspin the past week or two.

 

[sampson]

The washington and florida games are sooooooooo freaking huge right now... frig!

 

[EJ]

Hmm...I see a reversing pattern...we'll go 7-2-1 over this next ten.

Good eye, Avro... Giddy-up!

LOL I didn't even notice that.  Imagine that, out of nowhere in the middle of this mess the Leafs win 7 out of 10. 

Once this trade deadline passes, it wouldn't surprise me if the Leafs start to play a hell of a lot better. As if the pressure of playing in TO isn't enough for these young guys, when you add being in the thick of a playoff run (which would be their 1st appearance in 8 years) and the approaching deadline day. (which has become all encompassing in Toronto) it's no wonder they've gone on a tailspin the past week or two.

This pressure thing is blown way out of proportion here in Toronto, in my opinion.  It's the NHL, you are a pro, in most instances you get payed millions of dollars to play the sport.  Perform like it.

The Yankees, Red Sox, Lakers, Patriots etc... All huge pressure markets, all seem to make it to the games that count.

Just been meaning to get that off of my chest for a while now.  And the Leaf fans today are pretty forgiving, and the ACC is extremely quiet nowadays so its not like they are being distracted by boo's or anything of that sort.

Let the kids play... We all knew we'd be exactly in this position in the pre season, maybe reaching as high as 7th but likely 8th 9th or 10th... Its going to be a dog fight, and that's what we have here now.

 

[Pucken Chronic]

So I look at tonights schedule and I see The Caps vs the Sens. My first insticnt is to hope the Caps DESTROY the Sens... and then a sledgehammer of reality hits me and says as a fan wanting the Leafs to make the play-offs I should be cheering for the Senat..... for Otta... for...... Sorry, I just can't bring myself to say it, so... I should be cheering against the Caps.

This is wrong!