Goaltending Showdown - Reimer vs. Bernier
- Thread starter Zee
- Start date
bustaheims
Active member
RedLeaf said:
:
He put up equally impressive stretches by all objective measurements. That 2nd stretch included a 49 save shutout. Has Bernier managed that yet?
GhostofPotvin29
New member
RedLeaf said:
?
Would you rather have a goalie with worse stats but better rebound control or something? The goalie with the better stats is still letting in less of the shots on him.
Redleaf
Active member
Potvin29 said:
I'm just saying when you're comparing goalies, all things being equal, you have to look at rebound control, and puck handling as well. And Bernier has Reimer beat in both those departments. Also, I don't know how a fair comparison can be made this early on, especially when you have to find Reimer's best block of games, and compare them to Bernier's only games. That's a bit of a stretch.
bustaheims
Active member
RedLeaf said:
Please. You asked how "Reimer could top this kind of goaltending." I showed you how he provided a very similar level. Now, you've decided to move the fence posts and add all sorts of qualifications. You're embarrassing yourself. Bernier's had an excellent 3 and a half games, but, it's still only 3 and a half games. All these thigns you're trying to add into the discussion - rebound control. puck handling, etc - don't matter anywhere close to as much as the results, and, history has shown that Reimer is capable of playing at the same level Bernier has so far. This is also the best stretch of Bernier's career - not his only games. It's not like he's a raw rookie or anything.
Hypothetically if Bernier and Reimer were putting up identical stats I would still go with Bernier for his puck handling abilities alone. Better rebound control is a big plus too. Those advantages might not make a difference in their best 3-game stretches, but they sure will eventually.
bustaheims
Active member
RedLeaf said:
A goalie's ability to play the puck has a very minimal impact on the game. 95% of the time, a goalie who is good with the puck and a goalie who is not will do the exact same thing - leave the puck behind the net for the defenceman or make a short pass to their defence man. There's virtually no difference in how well the two types of goalies manage these situations. With the other 5% of situations, the difference really only has a significant impact if you have a goalie who is bad with the puck but insists on playing it instead of one that opts for the safe choice. Reimer has generally been the latter. And, well Bernier is better with the puck, he's not exactly Martin Brodeur back there, either. The difference between the Bernier's and Reimer's ability to play the puck is unlikely to have any impact on the final standings - and, even if it does, it will be an extremely negligible one.
The rebound control issue is bigger, but, that can largely be negated by a competent defence in front of the goalie. The Leafs did a very good good of clearing rebounds out last season, and should be able to do so again. There will be a few games where this has an impact, but, at the same time, Reimer has shown a very good ability to make those 2nd and 3rd saves when needed, so, I don't feel it will be a reason Reimer ends up as the #2.
On the flip side, if Bernier gets the start on Saturday, it will be the first time in his career he's started 3 consecutive games. We have no idea how well he'll handle playing longer stretches, since it's something he's never done at the NHL level. He's never started more than 5 games in a month at the NHL level. I'm not going to look at this very short stretch of games and say that Bernier will be taking the starting role because of some aspects in his game play that may or may not lead to better results. We know Reimer is capable of shouldering the load as an NHL starter for longer stretches and performing at a high level while doing so. We don't know that about Bernier, and, until we do, there's no way I or anyone else should be anointing one the starter over the other.
Kin
New member
RedLeaf said:
You're wrong. Rebound control and puck handling are semi-important aspects of a goalie's play but they're only important to the effect that they impact the number of goals that are being scored on a goalie. If two goalies have relatively equal numbers but one is better at rebound control/playing the puck then the other goalie must be better at something else which is negating the advantage those things would give the first goalie. I mean, otherwise you'd have to argue that good rebounding and puck control don't have any impact on a goalie's numbers which would kind of be problematic if you're arguing they're important.
Crucialness Key
New member
Arn said:
THE ROLE OF A HOCKEY FAN IS NOT TO ENJOY
IT IS TO ANOINT
THUS IT HAS BEEN PASSED DOWN TO US
OUR SACRED DUTY
*ritual gesture*
Zee
Active member
bustaheims said:
I have to disagree with your puck handling assessment having a minimal role. You can't quantify it, but when a team has a goalie who is bad at puck handling like Reimer, the opposition knows they can skate in harder and apply more pressure which leads to pressure on both the goalie and the defense. When you have a goalie that can play the puck well the opposition knows they can't pressure as much because more often than not the goalie can make the safe play. Its the reason the team looks a lot more calm playing in front of Bernier. Like I said its not something that you can quantify with stats as it affects the flow of play.
OldTimeHockey
Active member
You can't quantify it with stats but they did bring in those stupid red lines behind the net because goalies were getting too good at playing the puck. Someone, somewhere believes it effects the game.
bustaheims
Active member
Zee said:
The problem with your argument is, if you can't quantify it, you can't really be sure it actually exists or has any actual impact. The other teams may feel that by applying a more aggressive forecheck on a goalie that doesn't move the puck well will result in more turnovers than doing so on one that doesn't, but that doesn't make it true. I mean, let's be honest, the overwhelming majority of times a goalie plays the puck (regardless of how good they are with it), the opposition is not in the forecheck. They're in the middle of a change, or they're exiting the zone because they're offsides, etc. Even a goalie that is good with the puck will tend to err on the side of caution when they feel the opposition has a chance to come in on the forecheck, because, without clear lanes to move the puck, there's just as much chance they'll turn over the puck as a goalie who isn't very good with it.
bustaheims
Active member
OldTimeHockey said:
That was an attempt to defeat the trap - and one that most experts will tell you has had minimal impact. A goalie that moved the puck well was very effective in helping out the trap before they changed offsides from the play being offside to the player being offside and before they eliminated the two line pass infraction. Those two changes had the most impact on minimizing the effectiveness of the trap. The trapezoid thing was overkill at that point, and has a very limited impact.
Kin
New member
OldTimeHockey said:
Well, there's a difference between not being able to isolate something and not being able to quantify it. I mean, if the argument is that it's a valuable skill then common sense tells us it would have an impact on the box score, right? I mean, if a goalie is really good at clearing the puck then the puck will spend less time in his zone. Less time in his zone means fewer shots against. Fewer shots against mean fewer goals against.
So while you may never be able to specifically figure out what impact it has, if two goalies put up roughly comparable numbers but one is notably better at playing the puck then either the other is better at something equally valuable or playing the puck doesn't lead to fewer shots or fewer goals, in which case it really can't be that important.