Hurricanes @ Leafs - Feb. 22nd, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590

[Zee]

The Leafs didn't get beat by Ayers, not really. The Hurricanes worked hard and beat the Leafs as a team. Or you might say the Leafs best themselves.  No reason to be upset with Ayers, as embarassing as last night was.  When I get shit for this game, my plan is to just talk about how great a hockey story Ayers is. Even if it kills me a little inside.

Who's upset with Ayres?  The Leafs embarrassed themselves last night.

 

[Bill_Berg]

The Leafs didn't get beat by Ayers, not really. The Hurricanes worked hard and beat the Leafs as a team. Or you might say the Leafs best themselves.  No reason to be upset with Ayers, as embarassing as last night was.  When I get shit for this game, my plan is to just talk about how great a hockey story Ayers is. Even if it kills me a little inside.

Who's upset with Ayres?  The Leafs embarrassed themselves last night.

Ah I saw some comments earlier in the thread.  Probably just high emotion comments though.

 

[Bender]

Somebody said earlier that it makes you wonder whether Dubas's big plans are going to work at this level.  Yes, Carolina is a better than average defensive team but lesser teams have defeated the possession game if they play tenaciously enough. 

Somewhere Mike Babcock is having a real nice schadenfreude.

Really? If we have the same pts % for the full season instead of what we for under Babcock we aren't having this conversation.

I think the conversation still happens, it's just not as emotional.  If you read the posts the main theme is "Are the Leafs good?'. And people are divided on what the answer is.  Their divided because there are arguments that can be made on both sides.  I think that's why the conversations in these gameday threads take these swings game to game because after each group can point a finger and say "Look see I told you"

If the Leafs were in first place In the league and last night's game happened, in a way it may have been more embarrassing.

Tampa and Boston got smoked last night. The question is viable, don't get me wrong, but it's immensely coloured by sinking into a massive hole in the beginning of the season. Nobody is questioning Tampa/Boston just because they got smoked. I do think the number of blowouts is high even in context of Keefes Leafs being generally a good team.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

To be honest, I'm not even sure how this game reasonably even gets discussed alongside the actual worst and most embarrassing games in Leafs history, even though I see it being discussed in that context and it's obviously extremely easy to frame it that way.  If Ayres doesn't get into the game, I can't see that discussion happening, as thoroughly bad as this game was.  As awful as they were, I'm not even sure it was otherwise the worst Leafs game this year (which is saying something!) without going through the schedule and having a close look at the other stinkers.

Ayres is not a toddler in a Timbit league, he's an experienced enough goalie to make basic stops, and given the fact that the Leafs weren't getting chances at all before he went in net, you could be damn sure that Carolina was going to give the Leafs even less after he went in.  They clamped down unbelievably hard.  It wasn't that they couldn't beat Ayres, they couldn't even get a chance to beat him.  And don't forget that the last time Carolina was in town they choked, in my mind, way worse than the Leafs did tonight.  There's no question they were motivated to make up for that loss in December.

I honestly think the Leafs would have played better if Mrazek hadn't been injured.  It's hard to imagine that their game plan didn't either consciously or subconsciously become "shoot from anywhere", which is a terrible approach particularly when you're already getting dominated.  I'm certainly not going to pin anything on the crowd, but I don't think it helped that people were yelling "shoot!" many times in absolute non-shooting circumstances when even Tyson Barrie would say, "I'm not convinced that shooting is a good option here".  Believe me, I'm not excusing any of this, they played a horrible game, but I'm not sure that this game was any more concerning to me than multiple other concerning games this year.  It was absolutely a failure to seize an opportunity and thoroughly disappointing.  Move on.

 

[Kin]

Ayres is not a toddler in a Timbit league, he's an experienced enough goalie to make basic stops, and given the fact that the Leafs weren't getting chances at all before he went in net, you could be damn sure that Carolina was going to give the Leafs even less after he went in.

One of the things it did was highlight how a lot of times what happens in a game has absolutely nothing to do with who is in net. Mrazek/Reimer weren't the reason Carolina were beating the Leafs, Ayres isn't the reason they maintained their lead.

In a lot of ways it reminded me of some of those Canada/Switzerland games that showed why international ice is such a bad idea. If five reasonably competent defensive players decide that the two key facets of their game are to deny zone entry and, in the event of a zone entry, to collapse all five guys around the goalie than even a team as talented as the Canadian National Team is reduced to keeping the puck to the outside and hoping that a shot through traffic deflects to where you want it to go.

The Leafs have one of the best PP's in the league. Last night they couldn't even get it into Carolina's zone on four separate occasions. That's not evidence of "the problem".

 

[ZBBM]

I appreciate your post HS but IMO that absolutely has to rank as the most embarrassing loss in recent team history, and maybe ever.

They scored on their first 2 shots on him.  Sure, Carolina clamped down hard but the Leafs didn't respond.  If their fancystyle wasn't working, you dump and retrieve and do whatever it takes to create chaos in front of a *42-year-old amateur goaltender* and more shots on goal.  Carolina doesn't have magic players.  They wanted it more, much more, and they made the Leafs look like the sorry pretenders they are.

And as Nik said, no adjustments, from the players or from Keefe.  And he's shown he's quite willing to.

The main thing I am thinking this morning is that Keefe was quite right when he talked about how immature the team is.  I don't think any of the forwards, including Tavares, really have any idea of what it takes to win in the NHL when the going gets tough.  Muzzin is alone in that.  I strongly doubt that 16, 34, and 88 have ever really had to take responsibility for much of anything in their lives. 

The whole lot of them, every last player, ought to feel humiliated today.  And they need to feel that way for quite some time to come before "moving on" and whatever other cliches they trot out. 

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

I understand if the Canes or League does something here but I really, really hope the Leafs don't do anything cute to honor Ayres. This should be an embarrassment for a club that's asked a lot of its fans over the years and, if I was being brutally realistic about it, I think the organization might be best served by quietly finding Ayres a nice job somewhere else.

I can't see the Leafs doing anything in any significant or public way to honour Ayres for this.  The last thing they want is to do is draw more attention to this game, it would be like honouring salute-gate.

I also don't see any way in which they move Ayres out (even assuming that they would want to), quietly or not.  Frankly, in this age, there is no "quiet" way to do this, and the story is already viral beyond Toronto and beyond hockey.  They could try as delicately as possible to move Ayres away and there's still the likes of Simmons who will make a hot dog story out of it, and then it's even more viral and a way worse look and bigger distraction.

 

[Kin]

And as Nik said, no adjustments, from the players or from Keefe.  And he's shown he's quite willing to.

Nah, that's on the coach. It's his job to make adjustments to a game plan and get his players to buy in. He was unable to last night. Players don't do that independently.

 

[Kin]

I also don't see any way in which they move Ayres out (even assuming that they would want to), quietly or not.  Frankly, in this age, there is no "quiet" way to do this, and the story is already viral beyond Toronto and beyond hockey.  They could try as delicately as possible to move Ayres away and there's still the likes of Simmons who will make a hot dog story out of it, and then it's even more viral and a way worse look and bigger distraction.

It's big news today but in a month or two people will have moved on. And if Ayres gets a better job in the summer, I don't think the Governor of North Carolina will be tweeting about it.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

I appreciate your post HS but IMO that absolutely has to rank as the most embarrassing loss in recent team history, and maybe ever.

There's honestly no reconciling our extreme difference of opinion that the fact that Ayres was in net is crucial to your assessment of this game and relatively irrelevant to mine.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

I also don't see any way in which they move Ayres out (even assuming that they would want to), quietly or not.  Frankly, in this age, there is no "quiet" way to do this, and the story is already viral beyond Toronto and beyond hockey.  They could try as delicately as possible to move Ayres away and there's still the likes of Simmons who will make a hot dog story out of it, and then it's even more viral and a way worse look and bigger distraction.

It's big news today but in a month or two people will have moved on. And if Ayres gets a better job in the summer, I don't think the Governor of North Carolina will be tweeting about it.

Okay maybe, but then at that point, what is the point of doing it if everybody has moved on?

 

[Bill_Berg]

Ayers in net is the multiplier.  The reason this game is so embarassing is that it comes on the heels of a game they played great in response to playing like crap. It took one game to go back to garbage.

 

[Guilt Trip]

I also don't see any way in which they move Ayres out (even assuming that they would want to), quietly or not.  Frankly, in this age, there is no "quiet" way to do this, and the story is already viral beyond Toronto and beyond hockey.  They could try as delicately as possible to move Ayres away and there's still the likes of Simmons who will make a hot dog story out of it, and then it's even more viral and a way worse look and bigger distraction.

It's big news today but in a month or two people will have moved on. And if Ayres gets a better job in the summer, I don't think the Governor of North Carolina will be tweeting about it.

A month or two? Doubt that. Deadline day Monday or maybe even Tuesday when we play Tampa will be the move on day for most.

 

[Kin]

Okay maybe, but then at that point, what is the point of doing it if everybody has moved on?

People will have moved on from it being big news but if he's still around the team then every time a reporter sees him they might snicker and say to whoever's around them "See that? That's the amateur goalie who beat the Leafs" or if he's a practice goalie he'll still be a symbol of what will probably be one of the more embarrassing nights of the Leafs recent history.

People, as in the public, will move on from caring about it as soon as a hurricane hits or Trump announces that he's selling the Statue of Liberty or whatever but I'd actually hope that it's a memory that stays with the individual Leafs a while(without needing a constant reminder of it).

 

[Kin]

Ah I saw some comments earlier in the thread.  Probably just high emotion comments though.

I don't know if this is in reference to me saying they might want to quietly find him a new job but I'm not suggesting anyone should be mad at him personally. Just that, through no fault of his own, he's now a living, breathing reminder of a really embarrassing night for the Leafs and their fans.

 

[Guilt Trip]

but I'd actually hope that it's a memory that stays with the individual Leafs a while(without needing a constant reminder of it).

I don't think it stays for too long. Pro atheletes have short memories when it comes to losses during the season.

 

[Kin]

I don't think it stays for too long. Pro atheletes have short memories when it comes to losses during the season.

Losses against other professionals, yes.

 

[Guilt Trip]

I don't think it stays for too long. Pro atheletes have short memories when it comes to losses during the season.

Losses against other professionals, yes.

Doesn't matter. They know Ayres didn't beat them so as Keefe said, they didn't need a goalie in there last night. Leafs weren't creating anything.

 

[Bill_Berg]

Ah I saw some comments earlier in the thread.  Probably just high emotion comments though.

I don't know if this is in reference to me saying they might want to quietly find him a new job but I'm not suggesting anyone should be mad at him personally. Just that, through no fault of his own, he's now a living, breathing reminder of a really embarrassing night for the Leafs and their fans.

It was one. Not that I think your comments means you're angry. Perhaps upset isn't the best word either.  I wouldn't even think of him as a living reminder though. Or try not to anyway. It's not like the Leafs haven't played a decade's worth of stinkers this season.  There are 23 other guys at practice that are reminders of this game. And Buffalo.  And Pittsburgh. Ayers isn't the reason they lost last night. 

 

[Kin]

They know Ayres didn't beat them

Except he literally did. By the way statistics are figured in the NHL, Ayres won that game. In the Record books and everything. 

Take a step back and think about how unprecedented that is not just for the Leafs or Hockey, but in the history of professional sports.