Ian White

[Zee]

So salary aside you would rather have Ian White as opposed to Phaneuf?

I have no idea where you're getting that but no. Salaries being equal I'd probably give an edge to Phaneuf.

I have no idea where you got I was comparing White and Phaneuf directly.  The Leafs needed to make trades when they did and White was a piece that went.  There's no guarantee that White would have developed into what he is today had he stayed on the Leafs.  He's been traded a couple more times since the Leafs dealt him so he obviously wasn't that important to his new teams until he got to Detroit.

 

[Kin]

I have no idea where you got I was comparing White and Phaneuf directly.

No, crazy assumption on my part being as we're talking about the trade of one for the other.

There's no guarantee that White would have developed into what he is today had he stayed on the Leafs.

There's no guarantee that anything happens ever. White was, however, a good defenseman for the team at 22-24. There's no great shock that as he hits the age where defensemen tend to hit their prime that he's taken a step forward.

He's been traded a couple more times since the Leafs dealt him so he obviously wasn't that important to his new teams until he got to Detroit.

He got traded by crappy teams in his walk year. That doesn't say much about his value outside of the fact that every time he got made available there were teams out there who wanted him. To that point, it's not a shocker that one of the smartest teams in the league is the one that signed him as a free agent.

I'm just talking about the idea that he was an "average" player for the Leafs. He wasn't. If we're evaluating the trade, we have to deal with the realities of what he's done since. Like I said, he's been right with Phaneuf at way less money. Personally, I'd rather give "average" players an "average" salary.

 

[L K]

What basis, other than an obvious dislike for Phaneuf you have, is there for saying he does not consistently put in effort?  At the very least, he has put in as much consistent effort as White put in during his time here.  Sure he gets beat sometimes, but I think it's more because of just plain errors than a lack of effort.

Perhaps a too strong choice of words/inappropriate choice.  I think some of Phaneuf's mistakes are avoidable mistakes that don't prevent him from still being an offensive defenseman.  He's too strong to let guys get free from him in front of the net.  He's mobile enough as a massive defenseman to not let guys get a bunch of strides behind him when he occasionally coasts in the neutral zone. 

I certainly understand that part of his requires him to be aggressive and pinch deep.  He's actually pretty reliable at making things happen if he gets behind the net with the puck on his aggressive pinches. 

But at 6.5M and with his overall talent, I think there are discipline issues with his play that can and should be considerably less of a factor.  Whether that is actually because he doesn't put enough effort into his off-ice preparation I don't know, but I think they are things that he could correct from his game by taking a look at what he does wrong and what he does right. 

I actually like Phaneuf.  I do think he's our best defenseman (although I think Gunnar gives him a run in terms of being more reliable in all three zones), but I just get left wanting a little more from the guy who is our highest paid player and captain. 

When it comes to White, I think its just mildly disappointing that he was a guy who was seen as not worth keeping (not in terms of the Phaneuf deal itself, it seemed like the writing was on the wall for him in general).  I like what he does at a price-performance standpoint.  And I am taking into consideration that Burke isn't the only guy not to keep him AND that he is currently playing with Lidstrom.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

What basis, other than an obvious dislike for Phaneuf you have, is there for saying he does not consistently put in effort?  At the very least, he has put in as much consistent effort as White put in during his time here.  Sure he gets beat sometimes, but I think it's more because of just plain errors than a lack of effort.

Perhaps a too strong choice of words/inappropriate choice.  I think some of Phaneuf's mistakes are avoidable mistakes that don't prevent him from still being an offensive defenseman.  He's too strong to let guys get free from him in front of the net.  He's mobile enough as a massive defenseman to not let guys get a bunch of strides behind him when he occasionally coasts in the neutral zone. 

I certainly understand that part of his requires him to be aggressive and pinch deep.  He's actually pretty reliable at making things happen if he gets behind the net with the puck on his aggressive pinches. 

But at 6.5M and with his overall talent, I think there are discipline issues with his play that can and should be considerably less of a factor.  Whether that is actually because he doesn't put enough effort into his off-ice preparation I don't know, but I think they are things that he could correct from his game by taking a look at what he does wrong and what he does right. 

I actually like Phaneuf.  I do think he's our best defenseman (although I think Gunnar gives him a run in terms of being more reliable in all three zones), but I just get left wanting a little more from the guy who is our highest paid player and captain. 

When it comes to White, I think its just mildly disappointing that he was a guy who was seen as not worth keeping (not in terms of the Phaneuf deal itself, it seemed like the writing was on the wall for him in general).  I like what he does at a price-performance standpoint.  And I am taking into consideration that Burke isn't the only guy not to keep him AND that he is currently playing with Lidstrom.

Fair enough, I appreciate the explanation.

 

[Courtnall]

Anyone else notice that whites average ice time is almost identical to lidstroms?

 

[KW Sluggo]

And in the 3 full seasons before that last season he was a 20-something point defenseman. (26, 21, 26)  The final year the team was a complete mess and he was dealt in a huge package for Phaneuf and Aulie, I'm fine with that.

Those three seasons were seasons when White was 22-24. Those aren't average seasons for a defenseman that young, especially not when you factor in that White was getting #4 time both at even strength and on the PP(and those were years of McCabe/Kaberle getting two-three times the PP time of any other defensemen). That third year, he's one of only 29 defensemen in the league who scored 10 goals and he did it in 71 games. The first year he scores 26 points and is a +8 in front of Andrew Raycroft.

Be fine with whatever you like, just don't try to pretend that White hasn't essentially been as good as Phaneuf for half the price.

Excellent points.

In fact, if Calgary had held on to White, opinion as to which team "won" that trade may be quite different. 

Beyond ability and performance, the salary cap demands that contract size be an important consideration. Phaneuf was wildly overpaid by Calgary and we now have that burden.

 

[hockeyfan1]

There was something that I liked about Ian White when he was a Leaf -- the way he handled the puck, his shots, and the fact he was improving (or had more potential to). 

Dion is good, but not as agile as White is now with Detroit.  And that is exactly the type of mobile d-man the Leafs require.

 

[Al14]

There was something that I liked about Ian White when he was a Leaf -- the way he handled the puck, his shots, and the fact he was improving (or had more potential to). 

Dion is good, but not as agile as White is now with Detroit.  And that is exactly the type of mobile d-man the Leafs require.

Sometimes I think a drunk Ian White would be better at some things than a sober Phaneuf!  Remember, I said "Sometimes".

 

[Champ Kind]

There was something that I liked about Ian White when he was a Leaf -- the way he handled the puck, his shots, and the fact he was improving (or had more potential to). 

Dion is good, but not as agile as White is now with Detroit.  And that is exactly the type of mobile d-man the Leafs require.

You mean John Michael Liles isn't Ian White only better?

 

[L K]

There was something that I liked about Ian White when he was a Leaf -- the way he handled the puck, his shots, and the fact he was improving (or had more potential to). 

Dion is good, but not as agile as White is now with Detroit.  And that is exactly the type of mobile d-man the Leafs require.

You mean John Michael Liles isn't Ian White only better?

No.  Liles is a fine defenseman, but he's incompetent defensively.  White wasn't a shutdown guy but he at least knows how to play defense. 

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

No.  Liles is a fine defenseman, but he's incompetent defensively.  White wasn't a shutdown guy but he at least knows how to play defense. 

That's pretty harsh, I thought prior to a pretty serious injury, Liles more than held his own in his own end, with exactly the same type of positional play Ian White used.

 

[Kin]

I probably come down on LK's side of things. I might not use 'incompetent' but he was never a plus defender.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I didn't think there was much difference in White and Liles defensive games, although it's hard to remember that well having not watched White for a couple seasons now.

 

[Kin]

I didn't think there was much difference in White and Liles defensive games, although it's hard to remember that well having not watched White for a couple seasons now.

One thing in White's favour there is that they did use him on the PK pretty consistently. Liles has basically never gotten SH ice time in his career.

 

[cw]

I didn't think there was much difference in White and Liles defensive games, although it's hard to remember that well having not watched White for a couple seasons now.

One thing in White's favour there is that they did use him on the PK pretty consistently. Liles has basically never gotten SH ice time in his career.

White's short handed ice time/game tapered off to 5-6th on his team among dmen after he left Toronto. But Liles was close to non existent for most of his time in Colorado.

I do think White has been the better dman defensively. He kind of had to be. From his junior days, he was always offensively gifted. But his small size left many or most questioning whether he could play defensively in the NHL. To his credit, I think he realized that and worked hard on it. Most seasons since the lockout, he's been #1 or #2 in +/- among dmen on his team. Not a precise/super reliable stat but when one does it over that many seasons (one exception was in '08), I think it says something. I'm not saying he's great defensively but he's generally been careful to not be a giant liability to keep himself in the line up.

Liles seems like a decent guy but he's far from great defensively and with the kids we had coming along, I'll never understand the contract Burke re-signed him to.

 

[Kin]

White's short handed ice time/game tapered off to 5-6th on his team among dmen after he left Toronto. But Liles was close to non existent for most of his time in Colorado.

True. But even this year while competing against the likes of Lidstrom, Kronwall and Stuart the Red Wings gave White twice as much SH time as Liles got.

 

[Leafaholic99]

Steinbach product Ian White, a puck-moving defenceman, was among those skating with the Jets players on Tuesday and a source confirmed this afternoon that he will attend training camp on a pro tryout offer.

White, 29, had two goals and four points in 25 games with the Detroit Red Wings last season but has 45 goals and 179 points in 503 NHL games during his career.

Good to hear, not sure what happened to him since he left the Leafs, but the last few seasons he has been very quiet, maybe being close to home can help spark him again, always thought he was a good steady dman.

 

[seahawk]

Split 2010-11 between 3 teams (CAR, CGY, SJ). Has been with Detroit the last 2 years. 45 goals in 503 career games says stay at home D-man to me. Steady guy nothing too flashy, but one who can still fill a role with a lot of teams.

 

[Highlander]

Good for the Jets, White was the one guy I didnt want to go to Calgary in the dump for Phaneuf.

 

[Jalili]

Split 2010-11 between 3 teams (CAR, CGY, SJ). Has been with Detroit the last 2 years. 45 goals in 503 career games says stay at home D-man to me. Steady guy nothing too flashy, but one who can still fill a role with a lot of teams.

Thing is, stylistically White's not a stay at home D-man. You simply won't find stay at home D-men his size, because it's just too much of a limitation.

He's more of a puck-mover who's good at lots of things but doesn't excel at any one thing.

I always liked White, and actually I'm a little surprised his career never took off the way I thought it might.