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Idiocracy

Nik said:
Highlander said:
Please do not insinuate where I am at. You don't know me and have a clue of who I am.

An appropriate typo. I think I have a pretty solid idea of where the "Actually, plantation owners treated slaves really well" guy is at.
read your history Nik, I never have advocated slavery, I abhor it and that it even existed. The facts are the many planation owners were not only kind to their slaves but treated them with as much respect as this intolerable situation allowed. And huge amounts of previously enslaved people did chose to remain no the plantations and receive wages.

You know Nik what I abhor about you is the dismissal of an individual as the  "Actually, plantation owners treated slaves really well" guy is at.  I am not this I am stating historical accuracy.
 
Sure, systemic racism continued to exist in police departments after the riots of '68, the LA riots of '92, the Ferguson incident and the birth of the BLM movement but this time, this time, oh man. That paradigm shift. It's a comin', just wait for it. Any day now.
 
Well, I sure didn't think I'd walk into this thread and hear someone try to justify slavery....but then again it is the Donald Trump thread, so ?.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatment_of_slaves_in_the_United_States

This is from James Bradley, a former slave, writing in 1834:

How strange it is that anybody should believe any human being could be a slave, and yet be contented! I do not believe that there ever was a slave, who did not long for liberty. I know very well that slave-owners take a great deal of pains to make the people in the free states believe that the slaves are happy; but I know, likewise, that I was never acquainted with a slave, however well he was treated, who did not long to be free. There is one thing about this, that people in the free states do not understand. When they ask slaves whether they wish for liberty, they answer, "No"; and very likely they will go as far as to say they would not leave their masters for the world. But at the same time, they desire liberty more than anything else, and have perhaps all along been laying plans to get free. The truth is, if a slave shows any discontent, he is sure to be treated worse, and worked harder for it; and every slave knows this. This is why they are careful not to show any uneasiness when white men ask them about freedom. When they are alone by themselves, all their talk is about liberty ? liberty! It is the great thought and feeling that fills the minds full all the time.

It's 2020 people. I really shouldn't have to explain that you, by any reasonable definition, cannot treat someone kindly and with respect if you consider them your property enforced by state-sanctioned violence.
 
[We] are outraged about the murder of another Black person by Minneapolis police officers last week and the continued violent response by police against protestors. We have to speak out. We have to stand together with the victims of murder, marginalization, and repression because of their skin color, and with those who seek justice through protests across our country. We have to say his name: George Floyd.

George Floyd was a son, a brother, a father, and a friend. The police officer who put his knee on George Floyd?s neck and the police officers who stood by and watched didn?t just murder George Floyd, they stole him. They stole him from his family and his friends, his church and his community, and from his own future.

The murder of George Floyd was the result of inhumane police brutality that is perpetuated by a culture of white supremacy. What happened to George Floyd was not the result of a bad apple; it was the predictable consequence of a racist and prejudiced system and culture that has treated Black bodies as the enemy from the beginning. What happened to George Floyd in Minneapolis is the fruit borne of toxic seeds planted on the shores of our country in Jamestown in 1619, when the first enslaved men and women arrived on this continent. Floyd is the latest in a long list of names that stretches back to that time and that shore. Some of those names we know ? Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, Oscar Grant, Eric Garner, Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Emmett Till, Martin Luther King, Jr. ? most we don?t.

The officers who murdered George Floyd, who stole him from those who loved him, must be brought to justice. At the same time, we must embark on the more complicated work of delivering justice for all the victims of state sponsored violence and racism.

Four years ago, we publicly stated our support for the Black Lives Matter movement. Today, we want to be even more clear about the urgent need to take concrete steps to dismantle white supremacy in all its forms. To do that, we are calling for four things:

First, we call upon President Trump, elected officials, and political parties to commit our nation to a formal process of healing and reconciliation. Instead of calling for the use of aggressive tactics on protestors, the President must take the first step by disavowing white supremacists and nationalist groups that overtly support him, and by not using his Twitter feed to promote and normalize their ideas and agendas. The world is watching America?s response.

Second, we call upon the Congress to pass H.R. 40, legislation that would create a commission to study the effects of slavery and discrimination from 1619 to the present and recommend appropriate remedies. We cannot move forward together as a nation until we begin to grapple with the sins of our past. Slavery, Jim Crow, and segregation were systems of legalized and monetized white supremacy for which generations of Black and Brown people paid an immeasurable price. That cost must be acknowledged and the privilege that accrued to some at the expense of others must be reckoned with and redressed.

Third, we support Floyd?s family?s call to create a national task force that would draft bipartisan legislation aimed at ending racial violence and increasing police accountability. We can?t continue to fund a criminal justice system that perpetuates mass incarceration while at the same time threatens the lives of a whole segment of the population.

And finally, we call on the Department of Justice to reinvigorate its Civil Rights Division as a staunch defender of the rights of Black and Brown people. The DOJ must also reinstate policies rolled back under the Trump Administration, such as consent decrees to curb police abuses.

Unless and until white America is willing to collectively acknowledge its privilege, take responsibility for its past and the impact it has on the present, and commit to creating a future steeped in justice, the list of names that George Floyd has been added to will never end. We have to use this moment to accelerate our nation's long journey towards justice and a more perfect union.

https://www.benjerry.com/about-us/media-center/dismantle-white-supremacy

 
Highlander said:
Nik said:
https://twitter.com/ArashMarkazi/status/1267636511589031937

Things just keep on changing
I can pick isolated moments of police reaching out and hugging the community, of vocalizing peace.  You can pick a thousand of these unfortunate incidents and continue to paint your picture.

You really aren't making a great argument arguing that acts of human decency balance out illegal/inappropriate acts. 
 
Highlander said:
Nik said:
Highlander said:
Please do not insinuate where I am at. You don't know me and have a clue of who I am.

An appropriate typo. I think I have a pretty solid idea of where the "Actually, plantation owners treated slaves really well" guy is at.
read your history Nik, I never have advocated slavery, I abhor it and that it even existed. The facts are the many planation owners were not only kind to their slaves but treated them with as much respect as this intolerable situation allowed. And huge amounts of previously enslaved people did chose to remain no the plantations and receive wages.

You can't think of any reason that slaves stayed with their owners after the abolishment of slavery other than "hey they were pretty good guys!" 

This is getting downright stupid.
 
Nik said:
Sure, systemic racism continued to exist in police departments after the riots of '68, the LA riots of '92, the Ferguson incident and the birth of the BLM movement but this time, this time, oh man. That paradigm shift. It's a comin', just wait for it. Any day now.
I never said it would be fast, it may take years or even several more generations to achieve what we all want to happen, which is the true equality of all people as our true brother and sisters.  We all have to look inside and find an acceptance that there is one race, which is the human race.
 
Highlander said:
I never said it would be fast, it may take years or even several more generations to achieve what we all want to happen, which is the true equality of all people as our true brother and sisters.

What you're seeing on the streets right now is that some people are no longer willing to wait for the people living comfortably under the current system to have their kumbaya moment.

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

-Martin Luther King Jr.
 
Andy said:
Well, I sure didn't think I'd walk into this thread and hear someone try to justify slavery....but then again it is the Donald Trump thread, so ?.
Andy, if you read what I said and what I truly believe is this: 

Slavery is the biggest blight this world has ever seen, but we are now paying what is called the "Butchers Bill" of response for the seeds planted over 300 years ago.

I am a historian by nature and am not in the least saying slavery was ever justified, it certainly wasn't then and can never be made so. However certain historical realities do exist and I was a fool to point them out here.
What those Cops did to Mr. Floyd was beyond evil, I am hoping all of them are arrested and justice is served.  As  should be to all police that overstep their authority and go beyond the law. 
 
L K said:
Highlander said:
Nik said:
https://twitter.com/ArashMarkazi/status/1267636511589031937

Things just keep on changing
I can pick isolated moments of police reaching out and hugging the community, of vocalizing peace.  You can pick a thousand of these unfortunate incidents and continue to paint your picture.

You really aren't making a great argument arguing that acts of human decency balance out illegal/inappropriate acts.
I am not making any arguments, just pointing out that there are many cases of goodwill that many police are trying to put forth. Of course the shit outweighs the goodness by a country mile, but at some point we need to build on a few acts of goodness and build out from there.
 
L K said:
Highlander said:
Nik said:
Highlander said:
Please do not insinuate where I am at. You don't know me and have a clue of who I am.

An appropriate typo. I think I have a pretty solid idea of where the "Actually, plantation owners treated slaves really well" guy is at.
read your history Nik, I never have advocated slavery, I abhor it and that it even existed. The facts are the many planation owners were not only kind to their slaves but treated them with as much respect as this intolerable situation allowed. And huge amounts of previously enslaved people did chose to remain no the plantations and receive wages.

You can't think of any reason that slaves stayed with their owners after the abolishment of slavery other than "hey they were pretty good guys!" 

This is getting downright stupid.

LK where did I ever say that; "hey they were pretty good guys!" ??  I didn't say that at all or ever infer this. 

I was free, but there was no one to welcome me to the land of freedom. I was a stranger in a strange land.
? Attributed to Harriet Tubman

Many stayed where they were out of fear, not love of their former owners. Many slaves where disabled and unable to leave the plantations and of course families in those days stuck together.The Ku Klux Klan terrorized the south when the Civil War was over and many remained, as there was simply (to them at least) nowhere else to go.
The freed slaves were offered 40 Acres and a Mule and of course that promise was veto'd by President Johnson. Then, President Johnson ordered the land returned to its former owners and the black families were required to sign labour contracts.
Those who resisted were forcibly evicted, sometimes by the same Federal soldiers who had emancipated them in the first place.
Ideal situation? No as most continued in facto to still work for no or very little wages.  You can imagine the lack of education was crippling for a great amount of these folks.

So in fact LK the last thing I was suggesting was what you inferred I said.  And I am finished on this subject.


 
Nik said:
Highlander said:
I never said it would be fast, it may take years or even several more generations to achieve what we all want to happen, which is the true equality of all people as our true brother and sisters.

What you're seeing on the streets right now is that some people are no longer willing to wait for the people living comfortably under the current system to have their kumbaya moment.

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

-Martin Luther King Jr.
Nik, we have to move towards something that works for all people, which is not just tolerance but respect.  I think out of all this upheaval in the last week in particular there will be an advance towards what we all hope will come. Outside of a will to make this happen hopefully sooner than later, what are you suggesting?  Revolution? What?
 
Highlander said:
Nik, we have to move towards something that works for all people, which is not just tolerance but respect.  I think out of all this upheaval in the last week in particular there will be an advance towards what we all hope will come. Outside of a will to make this happen hopefully sooner than later, what are you suggesting?  Revolution? What?

It's not for me to suggest anything really. What I'm saying, other than that slaveowners did not treat the people they violently owned "kindly" or "with respect", is that it's clear that "just wait a while longer" and "don't protest in a way that offends Highlander's delicate sensibilities towards property rights" probably isn't an argument that's going to work.

If you want some measure of peace, you should be on the side of people fighting a racist system and the violent repression they use to clamp down on people and not hem and haw because decades of injustice occasionally results in some people being, you know, angry.

We can all read what you've written in this thread. That's what you're getting judged on and, quite frankly, a lot of it was just insane nonsense looking to excuse the current state of affairs. You don't have a good grasp of history and now you're just backpedaling to try and justify some ridiculously unjustifiable comments.
 
An important point to be made. All the talk about "outside agitators" being a major driving force behind why these protests are getting as heated as they are is neither true nor new. It's what those in power always say about movements like these to try and justify the excessive force being used. It's not your neighbours and friends being pepper sprayed and hit with clubs for assembling, no, it's shadowy "outside forces".

https://twitter.com/mollylambert/status/1267948074216722432
 
when did I mention property rights? and I have already stated that exceptions to the rule in historical accuracy should not have been pointed out in this forum..I am done.
 
Highlander said:
when did I mention property rights? and I have already stated that exceptions to the rule in historical accuracy should not have been pointed out in this forum.

You said "a huge majority" of slaveowners "took care" of their slaves. Not "exceptions to the rule". It was not "pointed out", it was a massive inaccuracy and gross reframing of the actual conditions most enslaved people lived under where they were terrorized and violently repressed from their natural desire for freedom. It's literally a few pages back. My memory works.

Anyways, for the people not looking to relitigate how nice slaveowners were, it's important to keep in mind that the current protests are not just about George Floyd, even though his on-camera murder has been the flashpoint. Breonna Taylor was killed by police in Louisville, in her own bed, when Cops serving a no-knock warrant fired into her house. No police officer has been charged with a crime or fired for the incident. The other night a Louisville business owner was killed by police who, shockingly, all seemed to have turned their body cameras off. No officers charged or fired. The NYPD is now covering up their badge numbers so they can't be reported for their actions and we've seen video of their cars drive into crowds of pedestrians. No one fired or charged. 

The idea that one of the four officers complicit in the murder of George Floyd simply being charged represents any real progress is laughable. Right now we are seeing the worst examples of the militarization and lack of accountability for these police forces.
 
Look we all want the same thing but pushing back and forth against each other is counterproductive. The real problem is what is the real way out of this? What are the solutions?

I believe Education is the key, but how to turn that key? Who to educate? Who is willing to listen?  How do you reach across a chasm of hatred (and I mean real hatred that exists between Whites and Blacks and Blacks and Whites)?   

I am hoping from further community outreach from the police to their communities.  Counselling and education for all officers. For greater screening against racist tendencies in the officer selection process.

There are a myriad of other things we have to do to make this happen.  But what?

 

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