Komarov shouldn't lose his spot because he was injured. He should lose his spot in the line-up because a better player is available. This isn't difficult.
Jets @ Leafs - Mar. 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, TSN 1050
- Thread starter CarltonTheBear
- Start date
"The beauty of the system is, once you get in, if you play good enough, no one takes you out."
-Some guy
-Some guy
herman said:
I mean I feel like you're trying to play both sides. You've fully admitted that Johnsson is the "younger and faster and better" player, but you're also trying your best to say that Babcock is right in keeping Komarov (therefore an older and slower and worse player) in the line-up over him right now.
If Johnsson's in the line-up in game 1 of the playoffs this whole discussion could have been a giant waste of time, but given Babcock's comments I doubt that happens. You think he's keeping Komarov in the line-up because it would have been unfair to lose his spot. I think he's keeping him there because he values what he brings to the team more than what Johnsson brings. And I think he's wrong to.
herman said:
Just for the record, I am 99% this rule exists to avoid blatant tanking. Although yes it is obviously pretty subjective, the NHL wasn't going to fine the Leafs for playing Martin over Kapanen when that was happening.
CarltonTheBear said:
This is probably a better way to have this discussion because for all we know none of these games really matter. Maybe Babcock just wanted to give Komarov some reps prior to playoffs starting (again I doubt this is the case). But hypothetically speaking if Komarov is in the line-up in game 1 of the playoffs is that the right move? Would you support that? Is that a decision that's worthy of criticism?
herman
Well-known member
CarltonTheBear said:
You're right in that I do think Johnsson is better; I wanted him up with the team last season, just like I've wanted a speedy and skilled 4th line because I believe it makes a difference. I understood why they slow rolled Johnsson considering the injury he suffered (which is far more likely to recur in the AHL, but that's another discussion); I also believe I understand the tightrope Babcock needs to walk with regards to the vets and what they represent to development.
I think the principle is that Komarov shouldn't lose his lineup spot immediately after returning from injury, not that he won't eventually. If this was mid-season, Komarov would probably be supplanted after another 3 games.
From Babcock's own comment on the matter, he wants Johnsson in the lineup, but also feels the need for the heavy body on the PK. Heck, Babcock already held Komarov out against the Isles even though he was technically healthy enough to return and spun it as a back-to-back rest thing (but also Islanders = fast, Jets = heavy).
As it stands, there are 3 games left in the regular season. I think Babcock will say he's rotating the bottom group a bit to keep people fresh. Komarov will draw in for the first two games of the playoffs (likely against the faster Lightning squad). If he gets torched a bit (esp. on PK), Johnsson draws in with home ice sheltering.
BTW: Komarov's PP point rates are technically higher than Nylander's (Points per 60); over the course of a 20-30s opportunity, they're basically the same. The lineup is determined for the whole game and Komarov was the best remaining LH shot for the bumper/net-front role (because the play runs through Nylander's half-wall).
herman
Well-known member
CarltonTheBear said:
I would support it insofar as to make Babcock see he has better options. My general philosophy in teaching/coaching is to let mistakes happen and try to guide the way out to improvement, so that colours my perspective on this matter more now.
Early last year, and even the tank season, I'd whine a lot more about the lineup and the missed opportunity of seeing the younger guys in action. I think this year, I know the not-as-good veterans occupying roles are deliberate hurdles and if a prospect can't cleanly beat that, it's better he gets more time higher in the lineup with the Marlies.
Johnsson is definitely one of those players who has earned a spot. He makes a lot of things work better, but at the same time, he's not an outright needle-mover, so it doesn't pain me to wait.
Bullfrog
Active member
herman said:
Cool, a ridiculous Machiavellian claim and an appeal-to-authority in one post. Well done!
Listen, I'm not particularly invested in this argument because I recognize a number of things (some of which you've pointed out):
- there is some code of conduct with respect to injured players being replaced and with veterans being given the benefit of the doubt and I support human decency
- Komarov does have value as a defensive player and PKer
- These last few games are somewhat meaningless
- Babcock is a slightly better coach than I am
That being said, it appears that for tonight Komarov is out and Johnsson is in. Ultimately, I wasn't implying that Komarov should lose his spot because of his injury, but rather that his injury opened an opportunity for Johnsson to show he's the better player. Because of that, Johnsson should be in and Komarov should be out.
As an aside, there is actually a rule that the team has to ice its best roster and there is no rule that an injured player must get a chance to get back in. But I'm not an idiot; I don't expect a rigid, literal interpretation to the rule.
herman
Well-known member
Bullfrog said:
Let me get an ad hominem jab in there too for the trifecta.
I probably misread your arguments earlier because I'm pretty sure we're on the same page (for the most part). There is a lot of cross chatter about Komarov even being back in the lineup that I must have conflated to your view. Sorry!
Kin
New member
herman said:
No, Andreas Johnsson isn't Lou Gehrig but, then again, neither was Lou Gehrig. He was just some kid his teammates made fun of for being an Ivy Leaguer and a Mama's Boy when he got his shot.
Of course though, the idea that Johnsson would be that good isn't really the point. The point is guys in sports have been losing their roster spots because a young player filled in well during their absence since *checks notes*...sports began.
Which is why I think both sides of this argument are wrong. Komarov over Johnsson isn't a pressing issue, it's not likely to make a big impact and it seems to be more of the "let's attribute all of the team's ills to one convenient scapegoat/coach's decision" crap that we see all too often. If Babcock thinks the team works better with him I think he's earned the benefit of that doubt.
On the other hand, pretending like this would collapse the dressing room is to ignore literally centuries of sports precedent and continues to indulge in the quite frankly baffling line of thought that holds that the Leafs shouldn't be making the right decisions because the group they've assembled are a bunch of fragile porcelain dolls.
"How can their psyches possibly adapt to the team trading pending UFA's at the deadline? How can they possibly want to win hockey games when the coach swaps out 4th line LW's for any reason under the sun?"
Jeez louise. You'll forgive the retrograde gender normative stereotyping but if I could paraphrase the words of Vito Corleone to Johnny Fontaine...they can act like grown-ass men. If they can't overcome either of those insurmountable challenges there's no way in hell they've got the fortitude to deal with the adversities of the NHL playoffs.
Guru Tugginmypuddah
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
