Jian Ghomeshi

[TML fan]

From what I've seen following this there is a lot of basic, fundamental knowledge that people don't know about the criminal justice system or about even the Charter.

I genuinely don't know what you mean by this. Nobody is confused by the concept of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The problem is when it goes up against a crime that's almost impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Rape cases almost always end up being he-said-she-said. Physical evidence generally doesn't even mean anything. It can prove two people had sex but it often can't prove what was going on in the minds of the two individuals when it happened. One person says that it was rape and the other says that it was consensual.

You don't see any issue with that type of system? You want an alternative? The saddest thing about all of this is that there might not be one.

I don't see an issue with a system that doesn't allow proven liars to put people in prison based on their word.

 

[Kin]

I genuinely don't know what you mean by this. Nobody is confused by the concept of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The problem is when it goes up against a crime that's almost impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Rape cases almost always end up being he-said-she-said. Physical evidence generally doesn't even mean anything. It can prove two people had sex but it often can't prove what was going on in the minds of the two individuals when it happened. One person says that it was rape and the other says that it was consensual.

You don't see any issue with that type of system? You want an alternative? The saddest thing about all of this is that there might not be one.

Yeah, as someone who saw a close family member be the victim of a pretty terrible violent crime the idea that the after-effects of trauma leave someone with a note perfect memory or never behaving in a way that might run counter we might assume we'd act in a similar situation is essentially just a fantasy. If that were a standard used in other criminal prosecutions the jails would be empty.

Like you say, most of the things that are used to obtain convictions in other crimes just tend not to exist in cases of sexual assault. As a result it does come down to a story. And if that story has to fit into anyone's perception of the model victim and is required to be unflinchingly accurate in every retelling then you have a recipe for a situation where an incredibly pervasive crime is very, very difficult to prosecute. As a result some studies have shown that less than 3% of all sexual assaults are even reported to police and of that 3%, only about 10% result in convictions. This despite the fact that there's no evidence that there's a rash of people just making up these crimes for whatever reason.

This isn't just a problem in Canada or this particular case. The difficulties with prosecuting sexual assault is endemic. I genuinely can't grasp the worldview that is satisfied with this status quo. 

 

[McGarnagle]

Like you say, most of the things that are used to obtain convictions in other crimes just tend not to exist in cases of sexual assault. As a result it does come down to a story. And if that story has to fit into anyone's perception of the model victim and is required to be unflinchingly accurate in every retelling then you have a recipe for a situation where an incredibly pervasive crime is very, very difficult to prosecute.

While I get your overall point and agree with it, I have a hard time applying the circumstances of the Ghomeshi case to this narrative.

 

[TML fan]

Nor do I think that anyone is saying the system as it is is perfect, but rather that there simply isn't a better alternative at this time.

 

[Kin]

While I get your overall point and agree with it, I have a hard time applying the circumstances of the Ghomeshi case to this narrative.

Well, maybe it's just me then but it seems like a lot of the post-verdict discussion has revolved around "credibility" and the effect a changing story/seemingly difficult to explain behaviour after an alleged assault has on said credibility.

 

[louisstamos]

From what I've seen following this there is a lot of basic, fundamental knowledge that people don't know about the criminal justice system or about even the Charter.

I genuinely don't know what you mean by this. Nobody is confused by the concept of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The problem is when it goes up against a crime that's almost impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Rape cases almost always end up being he-said-she-said. Physical evidence generally doesn't even mean anything. It can prove two people had sex but it often can't prove what was going on in the minds of the two individuals when it happened. One person says that it was rape and the other says that it was consensual.

You don't see any issue with that type of system? You want an alternative? The saddest thing about all of this is that there might not be one.

I don't see an issue with a system that doesn't allow proven liars to put people in prison based on their word.

To be fair, omission isn't the same as lying.  DeCouture said she honestly didn't remember sending that "text" that essentially broke the case to Ghomeshi.

 

[TML fan]

From what I've seen following this there is a lot of basic, fundamental knowledge that people don't know about the criminal justice system or about even the Charter.

I genuinely don't know what you mean by this. Nobody is confused by the concept of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The problem is when it goes up against a crime that's almost impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Rape cases almost always end up being he-said-she-said. Physical evidence generally doesn't even mean anything. It can prove two people had sex but it often can't prove what was going on in the minds of the two individuals when it happened. One person says that it was rape and the other says that it was consensual.

You don't see any issue with that type of system? You want an alternative? The saddest thing about all of this is that there might not be one.

I don't see an issue with a system that doesn't allow proven liars to put people in prison based on their word.

To be fair, omission isn't the same as lying.  DeCouture said she honestly didn't remember sending that "text" that essentially broke the case to Ghomeshi.

Fair enough.

 

[rdowdall]

This isn't just a problem in Canada or this particular case. The difficulties with prosecuting sexual assault is endemic. I genuinely can't grasp the worldview that is satisfied with this status quo.

Generally speaking, in the world over men just treat women badly, for whatever reason.  There is growth towards eliminating this, but for the most part, it just hasn't happened quickly enough.  It's systemic, and the solution would require changing the system.  This in my mind would mean that our views on women would have to change.  For example, no more rap videos with scantily clad women dancing all over the place, or those Carl's junior commercials which are just ridiculous.  The message can't be that women are just something to look at or are in some way servants to men.

Look at the Kesha/Dr. Luke scenario.  Here is a successful women, that had to do stuff that you just shouldn't have to do in order to be successful.