Johansen possibly being shopped.

[Kin]

We'll disagree on that, but they're going to have to do something...they look to be in a bit of a pickle here:

Sorry, we're disagreeing on whether or not a team not having their 4th or 5th round pick will motivate what they'd want in return for trading away their best player?

You realize the Leafs got a 5th round pick from Anaheim for Korbinian Holzer, right?

 

[bustaheims]

Could we do it without giving up Marner or Nylander? I would risk giving up our first rounder and some other pieces.  I do however like the way they are playing. Like I said goaltending early especially Bernier killed us. We have competed game in game out. At times we've been outplayed and reimer has got us some points. If we don't have to give up too much off the current roster, a young prospect in the minors plus the first rounder could that get it done. The team is not going to make the playoffs. If they can keep playing like this for the whole season and that is being competitive I don't think we will make the playoffs but the 1st rounder might end up being around 5-10 and I would risk giving that up. I know it's a good draft and would love a lottery pick but not sure if we'll end up there.

Unless one of the top picks from the previous two drafts is coming back as part of the trade, no trading of the Leafs' own 1st round picks until the team is on the cusp of being a legitimate Cup contender.

 

[rdowdall]

So one way to look at this might be like this.  If Johansen was talented enough to be a franchise center for a team, then shouldn't Columbus be better?  This doesn't mean that he isn't a real good #1 center.  However, if he is a guy you build around, then shouldn't the Blue Jackets be doing that?  Why trade a guy that you would build around at this stage of his career?

You could play the "Would you trade x for Johansen straight up" game.  Just to throw out some names:

McDavid
Crosby
Malkin
Toews
Seguin
Stamkos
Ovechkin
Kane

That's the type of player the Leafs are hoping to draft.  I don't think any of those teams would trade that player straight up for Johansen.  He's in the second tier of players.  That tier of "really good, but needs other really good pieces around them".

 

[Kin]

So one way to look at this might be like this.  If Johansen was talented enough to be a franchise center for a team, then shouldn't Columbus be better? 

I'm not sure that's really a good measurement. How many years were the Islanders bad despite having Tavares? What does Anaheim's early struggles say about Getzlaf? The Flyers haven't been good in a while. Is Giroux not a legitimate franchise center?

I'm not much on this "rumour" but shouldn't the presence of Seguin on your list at least raise the possibility that top flight players are sometimes available for stupid reasons?

 

[L K]

So one way to look at this might be like this.  If Johansen was talented enough to be a franchise center for a team, then shouldn't Columbus be better? 

I'm not sure that's really a good measurement. How many years were the Islanders bad despite having Tavares? What does Anaheim's early struggles say about Getzlaf? The Flyers haven't been good in a while. Is Giroux not a legitimate franchise center?

I'm not much on this "rumour" but shouldn't the presence of Seguin on your list at least raise the possibility that top flight players are sometimes available for stupid reasons?

Can we declare Johansen a clear franchise center when he has yet to hit PPG status?  Excellent player but he has 183 points in 292 games.  He's close but I'm not sure I put him exactly on that top echelon plateau just yet.

 

[Kin]

Can we declare Johansen a clear franchise center when he has yet to hit PPG status?  Excellent player but he has 183 points in 292 games.  He's close but I'm not sure I put him exactly on that top echelon plateau just yet.

In a league where the Art Ross winner has 87 points I'm not sure PPG is really the cut-off point it used to be.

 

[bustaheims]

In a league where the Art Ross winner has 87 points I'm not sure PPG is really the cut-off point it used to be.

That's true, but I think the heart of the question is still valid - is Johansen a franchise center? I'd lean towards no. He's a 1st line calibre guy, sure, but I think he's sort of like the Kessel of centers - very good, but not the you make the centerpiece.

 

[Highlander]

Nobody I want to trade at this point, don't give up any of our young talent or picks.

 

[Kin]

That's true, but I think the heart of the question is still valid - is Johansen a franchise center? I'd lean towards no. He's a 1st line calibre guy, sure, but I think he's sort of like the Kessel of centers - very good, but not the you make the centerpiece.

In the sense of Crosby/Stamkos/Toews? No, probably not. In the sense of that next rung of Getzlaf/Giroux/Backstrom? I think he's either there or very close.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

So one way to look at this might be like this.  If Johansen was talented enough to be a franchise center for a team, then shouldn't Columbus be better? 

I'm not sure that's really a good measurement. How many years were the Islanders bad despite having Tavares? What does Anaheim's early struggles say about Getzlaf? The Flyers haven't been good in a while. Is Giroux not a legitimate franchise center?

I'm not much on this "rumour" but shouldn't the presence of Seguin on your list at least raise the possibility that top flight players are sometimes available for stupid reasons?

Can we declare Johansen a clear franchise center when he has yet to hit PPG status?  Excellent player but he has 183 points in 292 games.  He's close but I'm not sure I put him exactly on that top echelon plateau just yet.

Johansen - .627 ppg
T. Bozak - .621 ppg

I know, I know... I'm not making that argument, I just thought it was interesting.

 

[azzurri63]

Bozak's approaching 30 and is in his 6th full season. I would also probably say Tyler has had better offensive line mates than Johansen has had in his short career. Bazooka has never hit 50 points. Johansen is on the rise. Somethings up in Columbus either injury wise or issues with Torts. He has all the tools of a number 1 counterman. I think he is only going to get better. Seems like there some mixed feelings about the thread. Nik though is absolutely right sometimes you don't halve to mortgage the farm to pick a player in this calibre up. All I'm saying is the Leafs should be right in there inquiring. He's still young and although I'm 100% with the rebuild but this doesn't stray away with that. I've always said when it comes to draft picks unless it's a top pick it's a crap shoot. As I stated if the Leafs keep playing the way they are the pick might be around 10th. I don't think you get someone in Johansen's calibre. I know that could be a lower pick with the lottery but not much.

 

[bustaheims]

In the sense of Crosby/Stamkos/Toews? No, probably not. In the sense of that next rung of Getzlaf/Giroux/Backstrom? I think he's either there or very close.

Maybe, but all of those guys aren't players use as a centrepiece to build around. Whereas guys like Crosby/Stamkos/Toews can drive the offence on their own, the others all need another piece on their line to be really effective. They're in the top tier at creating chances, but they're 2nd tier type goal scorers. To me, a franchise guy needs to be among the best in the league for both, or be an exceptional defender if they're not exceptional goal scorers (which might push Giroux close to that top tier, but not so much the other guys or Johansen).

 

[bustaheims]

Bozak's approaching 30 and is in his 6th full season. I would also probably say Tyler has had better offensive line mates than Johansen has had in his short career. Bazooka has never hit 50 points. Johansen is on the rise. Somethings up in Columbus either injury wise or issues with Torts. He has all the tools of a number 1 counterman. I think he is only going to get better. Seems like there some mixed feelings about the thread. Nik though is absolutely right sometimes you don't halve to mortgage the farm to pick a player in this calibre up. All I'm saying is the Leafs should be right in there inquiring. He's still young and although I'm 100% with the rebuild but this doesn't stray away with that. I've always said when it comes to draft picks unless it's a top pick it's a crap shoot. As I stated if the Leafs keep playing the way they are the pick might be around 10th. I don't think you get someone in Johansen's calibre. I know that could be a lower pick with the lottery but not much.

You and other people had stated this, and, every time, the numbers have been presented to show how that's not likely to be true. The way the Leafs have been playing involves exceptional goaltending and the other team having the puck more than they do. That's not a recipe that will see them climb the standings, but one that will more that likely see them drop in them.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Maybe, but all of those guys aren't players use as a centrepiece to build around. Whereas guys like Crosby/Stamkos/Toews can drive the offence on their own, the others all need another piece on their line to be really effective. They're in the top tier at creating chances, but they're 2nd tier type goal scorers. To me, a franchise guy needs to be among the best in the league for both, or be an exceptional defender if they're not exceptional goal scorers (which might push Giroux close to that top tier, but not so much the other guys or Johansen).

This just seems like squabbling about what a "franchise" player means. Everyone will have a slightly different definition. To be Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Toews, Giroux, Getzlaf, Backstrom, Tavares, and Seguin are all "franchise" players. At least while they're still in their primes (looking at you, Getzlaf). Obviously you can divide that group into two smaller groups as well. Kopitar, Bergeron, and Datsyuk would be in a tier very, very close to those guys. If Kopitar and Bergeron scored a tad more and Datsyuk stopped aging and getting hurt they'd be there.

For my money Johansen would be the next best centre after all those guys. Being the 13th best centre in the league is nothing to be ashamed of. Especially since he's younger than everyone ahead of him. So "franchise" centre? Maybe not, but if he can score 70 points back-to-back I'd think about it.

 

[Deebo]

Bazooka has never hit 50 points.

Why does 50 points matter? He's had seasons where he recorded: 49 in 73GP, 49 in 58GP and 47 in 73GP. If he played a few more game in any of those seasons and hit 50 points, would it change you opinion of him as a player?

 

[herman]

I was wondering how Johansen compared to Kadri. Their HERO charts made it look like he was a shootier (and scorier) version of Kadri.

Here's a fun chart I found while looking for articles comparing the two:

Source: http://www.todaysslapshot.com/one-timers/using-advanced-stats-to-classify-nhl-center-types/

Having not seen him play much, other than against us lately, are his Assist totals low because he's saddled with the Hoglunds of CBJ?

From what I have seen, I like the idea of him more than ROR and Statsny, if we're comparing other potential centremen the fandom had targeted in the past. At this stage of the rebuild, he would have to come at a very reasonable cost (i.e. very unreasonable for the other team, or free) for me to entertain this idea.

 

[Frank E]

Bazooka has never hit 50 points.

Why does 50 points matter? He's had seasons where he recorded: 49 in 73GP, 49 in 58GP and 47 in 73GP. If he played a few more game in any of those seasons and hit 50 points, would it change you opinion of him as a player?

I think it's probably worth mentioning that he's on pace for 60 points, the best year of his career, if he keeps this up and plays the rest of the games.

And I know that Kadri's points production probably isn't a fair assessment of his play this year, with that SH% being crazy low and all that, but he's only generated 6 assists, and overall he's producing at half the rate Bozak is.  Maybe this has to do with Kadri playing against other teams' top defenders, and really not being good enough to produce properly well given the better players he's facing...so far.  Is Bozak facing the opponents' 3-6 defensemen more often this year?

Anyways, so much for Bozak falling off a cliff when Kessel was traded...so far.

 

[Kin]

Nik though is absolutely right sometimes you don't halve to mortgage the farm to pick a player in this calibre up.

I'm pretty sure Nik didn't say that.

 

[Kin]

Maybe, but all of those guys aren't players use as a centrepiece to build around. Whereas guys like Crosby/Stamkos/Toews can drive the offence on their own, the others all need another piece on their line to be really effective. They're in the top tier at creating chances, but they're 2nd tier type goal scorers. To me, a franchise guy needs to be among the best in the league for both, or be an exceptional defender if they're not exceptional goal scorers (which might push Giroux close to that top tier, but not so much the other guys or Johansen).

Without wanting to get into the ins and outs of defining something as inherently subjective as what makes for a "franchise" player I think what we might have to accept is that whether or not it's ideal to build around someone like Kopitar or Bergeron or Getzlaf there is a reality that:

A) It can be done
B) Stubbornly holding out for a Crosby/Toews/Stamkos best in the league type might not be practical

 

[bustaheims]

B) Stubbornly holding out for a Crosby/Toews/Stamkos best in the league type might not be practical

I'm not. I'm just saying it's not practical to trade valuable assets to acquire a Johansen level center right now.