Kyle Dubas named Penguins President of Hockey Ops

[ZBBM]

To me, after all is said and done it boils down to this.  Shanahan gave Dubas some very good cautionary advice ? don't talk to the press until we have our deal done ? and Dubas chose not to take it.  That was a very poor decision and it ended up costing him the most prestigious GM job in the business. 

It also speaks to what I posted above about maturity.  I get this is an Alpha Male world and that confidence is a very necessary commodity.  But a guy with more experience would, I think, have taken his boss's advice (his BOSS'S advice, for God's sake!) at what everyone could see was a delicate juncture. At the very least he could have played his cards close to the vest at the presser.  But he didn't, or perhaps couldn't help himself.

I appreciate and respect Dubas's Modern Male embrace of his own emotions, and his We Can and We Will attitude.  I was perfectly OK with him coming back and wish things hadn't turned out the way they have.  And Shanahan is not without blame.  But on balance, Dubas is more at fault.  He came pretty close to admitting that in his Pitts presser today.

 

[IJustLurkHere]

The thing I keep coming back to: who is the biggest loser out of this situation after the chips have fallen and the drama fades away? With Dubas taking this job in Pittsburgh, it cements for me that it's not Kyle Dubas. Whatever rationale the Leafs made their decision with, and whether or not we like the way either Dubas or the Leafs went about it, there is more risk in the approach taken by the Leafs than that taken by Dubas.

Dubas has already landed on his feet. The Leafs... have a lot of work to do.

Hopefully Treliving proves to be a better GM. Given the rush in which he was (and had to be) hired, it'll be serendipity if it does.

 

[Bender]

The thing I keep coming back to: who is the biggest loser out of this situation after the chips have fallen and the drama fades away? With Dubas taking this job in Pittsburgh, it cements for me that it's not Kyle Dubas. Whatever rationale the Leafs made their decision with, and whether or not we like the way either Dubas or the Leafs went about it, there is more risk in the approach taken by the Leafs than that taken by Dubas.

Dubas has already landed on his feet. The Leafs... have a lot of work to do.

Hopefully Treliving proves to be a better GM. Given the rush in which he was (and had to be) hired, it'll be serendipity if it does.

It's hard to compare an organization to an individual, and it's hard to say who made the right decisions, especially when two franchises are at much different places. I do have mixed feelings about how I think Trelivings tenure will go, but I'm not so sure about Kyle in Pittsburgh either.

 

[TimKerr]

What exactly are the bad optics or negative consequences here for Dubas? He is now the President of Hockey Operations in Pittsburgh. He got a promotion. So however he was viewed to behave in the end in Toronto it certainly didn?t matter cause he had a new job within a week.

 

[Bender]

I don't know to what degree people said he wasn't "allowed" but I can easily see why it's bad optics to many.

Given that it's only seems to be read as bad optics by people who already seem determined to paint Dubas in a pretty bad light here I'm not sure I'd read much into that. Nearly all of the "This looks bad for Dubas stuff" seems to boil down to people not thinking that circumstances can change and/or wildly overreacting to something Dubas might have said during a professional lowpoint that may not be an entirely true reflection of his less emotional self. This really isn't any different.

My point though is I think people can understand that circumstances can change, and people can change their mind, but saying what he said to the media, then negotiating in the manner he did made him look foolish and in a lot of ways led to his dismissal, so I can understand why people can feel sour about it. I'm not saying it's right or that I agree with it, but I think it's understandable.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I'm still struggling to see how this is bad optics for Toronto or Dubas. On one hand, you had a GM cast doubt on whether he wanted to continue which was then followed by an ask for lots of money. I look at that ask as a "well if I'm going to do it, I may as well swing for the fences" kind of ask. Dubas was well within his rights to do so. As was Toronto well within their rights to walk away from said request and the GM that had cast doubts in their minds.

Was Dubas' press conference pre firing well handled? Nope
Was Shanahan's handling of the situation following that done properly? Probably not

Is either of those really that much of a disaster to the point that there's been two weeks of media drama? I personally don't think so.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I'm still struggling to see how this is bad optics for Toronto or Dubas. On one hand, you had a GM cast doubt on whether he wanted to continue which was then followed by an ask for lots of money. I look at that ask as a "well if I'm going to do it, I may as well swing for the fences" kind of ask. Dubas was well within his rights to do so. As was Toronto well within their rights to walk away from said request and the GM that had cast doubts in their minds.

Was Dubas' press conference pre firing well handled? Nope
Was Shanahan's handling of the situation following that done properly? Probably not

Is either of those really that much of a disaster to the point that there's been two weeks of media drama? I personally don't think so.

That's a bingo. At the time, I was considerably a lot more against Shanahan over what happened. Which shouldn't be all that surprising since I've openly been a supporter for Dubas since his first day in the organization.

I've cooled off a lot in the past 2 weeks. Worst thing I can say now is that I do believe the Leafs acted a little too hastily in deciding to fire him almost immediately after that new contract demand. I can't imagine there wasn't some middle ground that could have been found there. But it also sounds like that may have been a bit of an upstairs call, so whatever.

There's no villains in this story though, regardless of which way you look at it. It's unfortunate the way this era ended but life will go on in Leafland and Dubas will enjoy his new job in Pittsburgh.

 

[Arn]

I wonder how much fun a Leafs v Penguins conference final could be next season...

 

[Arn]

I'm still struggling to see how this is bad optics for Toronto or Dubas. On one hand, you had a GM cast doubt on whether he wanted to continue which was then followed by an ask for lots of money. I look at that ask as a "well if I'm going to do it, I may as well swing for the fences" kind of ask. Dubas was well within his rights to do so. As was Toronto well within their rights to walk away from said request and the GM that had cast doubts in their minds.

Was Dubas' press conference pre firing well handled? Nope
Was Shanahan's handling of the situation following that done properly? Probably not

Is either of those really that much of a disaster to the point that there's been two weeks of media drama? I personally don't think so.

That's a bingo. At the time, I was considerably a lot more against Shanahan over what happened. Which shouldn't be all that surprising since I've openly been a supporter for Dubas since his first day in the organization.

I've cooled off a lot in the past 2 weeks. Worst thing I can say now is that I do believe the Leafs acted a little too hastily in deciding to fire him almost immediately after that new contract demand. I can't imagine there wasn't some middle ground that could have been found there. But it also sounds like that may have been a bit of an upstairs call, so whatever.

There's no villains in this story though, regardless of which way you look at it. It's unfortunate the way this era ended but life will go on in Leafland and Dubas will enjoy his new job in Pittsburgh.

This is one of the best summaries I've read about it, I think

Dubas, who Shanahan and the board declined to extend last offseason, spoke in a year-end presser about family difficulty, handling the pressure of the job and agonizing about whether or not to return. Ultimately Dubas decided he wanted to return and at that point, his agent presented Shanahan with a new offer.

In response, Shanahan and the MLSE board decided to fire Dubas instead ? with Shanahan explaining the decision and revealing all of the gritty details in a remarkable, unnecessary press conference.

It?s never a good sign for a leader in any field when their actions and comments can be eviscerated thoroughly in a half sentence the way Shanahan?s were in a Dubas statement that noted only, ?I will not get into the specifics of what I consider to be reasonable and consistent but private discussions.? It was the professionalspeak equivalent of saying ?Get a load of this guy.?

With the events of Thursday now in the rearview mirror, we?re left to wonder if Shanahan simply got outmaneuvered. If Dubas? heartfelt commentary was genuine, and I want to note that I believe it was, then Shanahan?s reaction reads as uncaring and troublingly out of touch with the state of mind of his most senior hockey operations deputy. If Dubas? heartfelt commentary about his family situation was a cynical negotiating ploy, then Shanahan took the bait, self-destructed and all but gift-wrapped FSG?s top candidate to them. Either formulation poses some really tricky questions.

Despite a concerning process, the outcome for Shanahan and the Leafs is a solid one. Treliving is a quality hire in any circumstances, but in these ones especially.

https://theathletic.com/4573985/2023/06/02/kyle-dubas-penguins-brad-treliving-maple-leafs-nhl-executive/

As the rest of that article suggests, I think Dubas Treviling, the Leafs and Penguins all actually come out of it alright.

Shanahan maybe less so.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Shanahan maybe less so.

I don't think that's necessarily true.  Shanahan did what the MLSE board wanted him to do.  He approached the board for a Dubas extension last year, and was denied.  I think letting someone twist in the wind for a season can bread some resentment.  If what you have done up until this point isn't enough for your boss to extend your contract, what are you going to do in the upcoming year to sway them might put on some extra pressure. 

If the board approves an extension for Dubas last season, we obviously wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I think that was really the crux of the issue for Dubas.  I think it really stung not getting the extension done last summer.  His comments at the presser relating to it being a tough year for his family was in direct reference to that.  What was different about this year?  He never complained before that the season was rough on his family.  The only thing that really changed was his contract was expiring. 

We saw his ability to lose his emotional level headedness during the Tampa series.  For someone to doubt whether they want you or not, can not feel very good.  MLSE was in doubt last year whether they wanted Dubas or not as the GM  past the 202-2023 season. I think Dubas carried over that anger into his negotiations right up until that last email. 

His comments during that presser about he's not sure if he wants to continue as GM were akin to your significant other telling you they are not sure if they want to be with you anymore and they need a year to decide and you saying oh yeah!?!?!?!! Well I'm not sure I want to be with YOU!!!!!!

When you are a fan of one team, it's hard to cheer for anything good to happen to another team.  On a human level, Dubas has always presented himself as a class act, and I do like what he has done for the Leafs.  While the way things ended in Toronto seemed a little out of character for Dubas,  I wish him all the best. 

 

[Arn]

Shanahan maybe less so.

I don't think that's necessarily true.  Shanahan did what the MLSE board wanted him to do. 

Fair point.

 

[Kin]

That was a very poor decision and it ended up costing him the most prestigious GM job in the business.

Wow. The Canadiens fired him too? Tough week for ol' Dubie.

 

[Kin]

My point though is I think people can understand that circumstances can change, and people can change their mind, but saying what he said to the media, then negotiating in the manner he did made him look foolish and in a lot of ways led to his dismissal, so I can understand why people can feel sour about it.

We don't know how he negotiated. We have a lot of speculation, and post a messy break-up many, many sports teams have been known to plant stories via friendly sources in order to make their decision seem less stupid than it does on the surface.

What we do know is that Kyle Dubas was let go. Then, very shortly afterwards, he was snapped up and given a promotion from an organization that have been able to win cups since the first Prime Minister Trudeau.

 

[Kin]

Is either of those really that much of a disaster to the point that there's been two weeks of media drama? I personally don't think so.

I mean, it's not worth anyone tearing their hair out or anything but I don't think there's a lot of ways to look at this for the Leafs other than they seemingly let pettiness and/or frugality mean they didn't get their #1 choice to run the team and his replacement is a guy who's biggest career accomplishment to date is producing a consistently middling Flames team.

Edit: And I've said it before but it bears repeating. This isn't a case of me being all that torn up about Dubas not being around either. If after the season the Leafs had come out and said "We appreciate all Kyle did for us here but we feel we need to move in another direction to take that next step forward" I'd have been ok with that provided there was a pretty credible case for whoever they decided was the guy to replace him. Instead we get the aforementioned bag fumbling followed by a one week GM search that produces another round of "Which member of the Good Ol' Boy network is currently out of a job" musical chairs.

 

[Andy007]

Maybe I'm na?ve or missing something here but I'm still not sure how the Leafs "fumbled the bag" and why Treliving simply qualifies as a "good ol boy"? Personally I have no issues with how either party (Dubas, Leafs) went about their business and am a little baffled about the levels of divisiveness on display (all around, not just on here).......and this is coming from someone who isn't exactly a Shanahan fan and is, exactly, a big Dubas supporter.

 

[Kin]

Maybe I'm na?ve or missing something here but I'm still not sure how the Leafs "fumbled the bag" and why Treliving simply qualifies as a "good ol boy"?

With regards to the first thing there I'm not sure how deeper it's possible to get. In terms of things we know, or at least what people involved have actually said we have some pretty basic facts. The Leafs wanted Dubas to return. He didn't. The possible explanations we have for why they either couldn't or didn't make that happen are either their reaction to something incredibly inoffensive and innocuous he said at a press conference or new salary request. Neither, to my mind, seems like a good enough reason for a team to not get the guy they had already decided they wanted to run the hockey club. I suppose "fumble" does imply that it wasn't intentional so I guess it's fair to say that's not the best word but I'm not sure we have a better shorthand for intentional incompetence. 

(Edit: And this is, again, before what will almost certainly be an incredibly important off-season for the Club so even if there were some Super GM Candidate with 11 Cups to his name you'd still be choosing the unknown over stability at a time when I think most would prefer stability, the Leafs apparently included)

As to the second while that's certainly not a scientific term I'm not sure what your objection would be to the categorization of a guy who's been in NHL front offices for 20 years, was hired in a process whose length all but guarantees that the team was not particularly thorough or exhaustive in looking at all candidates(both traditional or innovative) and has no real track record of success anyone can point to that would lead anyone being even vaguely honest to say something along the lines of "Well, if he becomes available you have to hire him". Again, based on the speed of the process there's really no way to justify the hiring outside of a previous relationship between him and Shanahan which...I mean, I feel like I've made a pretty solid case here without even mentioning the Sportsnet article that went out of its way to point out that Larry Tanenbaum is pals with his Dad.

 

[Andy007]

1. The person an employer is negotiating with for a contract extension suddenly questions if he wants the job and when pressed further ultimately ask for significantly more money with a promotion that would supplant the job of the employer's negotiator, who is supposed to approve and submit the request. The employer rescinds the extension offer and looks at different candidates. Sounds fairly reasonable to me.

2. The context by which you used "good ol boy" characters the hiring, and Treliving, in a negative light. Other than the lack of an "exhaustive search" (and, I guess, the fact that Treliving's father isn't a loner with less effluent friends), I don't see what it is about Treliving's track record that makes him that much of a worse candidate than Dubas or a "musical chair" hiring, for that matter. Treliving has had exactly one stint in the GM position and was fairly successful (arguably no less successful than our outgoing GM, who, apparently, was also a musical chair hire, considering how quickly the Pens' process was done and him having the same amount of GM'ing experience as Treliving).

Anyway I'm not trying to get into a big thing here, I just don't see why there has to be two distinctive sides. The Leafs acted in a reasonable manner and got a pretty good GM under somewhat serious time constraints. They also had a pretty good-good GM that I would also have liked to see return who acted reasonably and in his best interests. And when Treliving trades Nylander straight up for Josh Manson and signs Tom Wilson to a 7x7 contract, I am going to delete these posts and call for Shanahan's head to be served on a platter like a Yusei Kikuchi centre-cut fastball!

 

[Kin]

1. The person an employer is negotiating with for a contract extension suddenly questions if he wants the job an...

I do kind of have to cut you off there because that's where we kind of get into the stuff we don't actually know and has just been floated by various "insiders" who may or may not have agendas here. We don't know the specifics of what Dubas asked for money-wise or autonomy-wise and absent those specifics I'm not sure it's a super fertile ground for meaningful discussion outside of going back and forth on my positions that A) I don't give the slightest damn how much MLSE pays the guy they identified as the right guy to take the team forward and B) I, generally speaking, think the GM should have autonomy in making hockey decisions.

2. The context by which you used "good ol boy" characters the hiring, and Treliving, in a negative light. Other than the lack of an "exhaustive search" (and, I guess, the fact that Treliving's father isn't a loner with less effluent friends), I don't see what it is about Treliving's track record that makes him that much of a worse candidate than Dubas or a "musical chair" hiring, for that matter. Treliving has had exactly one stint in the GM position and was fairly successful (arguably no less successful than our outgoing GM, who, apparently, was also a musical chair hire, considering how quickly the Pens' process was done and him having the same amount of GM'ing experience as Treliving).

I mean, it strikes me as slightly disingenuous to suggest the Tanenbaum thing is about his wealth and not, you know, the fact that he owns the Maple Leafs which seems somewhat relevant to the discussion of whether this hire feels merit based or insider-y but sure, we can get deeper.

To start, I'm not sure that Treliving is a much worse candidate than Dubas for the job. Again, if the Leafs had said "We don't think Kyle's the guy we need to take the next step" after the season and just fired him, I'd have been ok with it. If I had to grade his tenure I'd give him a B or something. I'd still have preferred stability going into this off-season but the idea that he was the best of all possible candidates has never been my position. To not thoroughly search for either A) A bright young mind in the vein of Dubas or B) Someone with a proven track record of big success in the NHL but to instead come back with a guy without that track record and who the best thing you could say about him is "Well, he's not significantly worse than Dubas anyway" then does strike me as going with the worst of both worlds. Instability and no real reason to think the Leafs have made an upgrade.

Again, if the Leafs wanted to move on from Dubas because he was a B student and they think that the Leafs need someone who consistently turns in As then great! And if you go out and find a guy who either has some of that success on his resume or is Dubas 2.0 with better calculators ok but to come back with a guy who has 8 years on his resume where he absolutely conclusively did not show any elements of GM-savanting then I don't see how it's possible to not see this in a negative light.

Secondly, Regarding the Pens and their decision to hire Dubas I think it's important to note that I don't really care if Dubas is or isn't a good hire for them. I suppose if I had to play some sort of Devil's Advocate I'd say that Dubas had some pretty good press so far as being a very good hockey mind and that if the Leafs did decide to move on from him a smart organization would snap him up which both proved prophetic but also does distinguish it from the Treliving hire to some extent. Even if you think the talk about Dubas and his magic calculators was hype, at least you could say the Pens bought into the hype. You can't say that with Treliving whose name, when kicked about, was met with shrugs at best.

But beyond that I think Dubas does have a legitimate track record of doing the thing the Pens will need him to do in the next few years and that's to cultivate a team of young players into a team that consistently makes the playoffs. There is nothing comparable to Treliving. The Leafs are a talented team looking to get over the playoff hump and retain their best players. Does Treliving have a history of building teams that go on deep playoff runs? He doesn't. Does he have a bunch of "Oh wow, look at the deal he got that star to sign" contracts under his belt? Again, no unless one slips my mind(And it's probably worth mentioning that he couldn't get Gaudreau to re-sign). This strikes me as a pretty significant difference if you can credibly make a case that Dubas has broadly speaking done what the Penguins will want him to do when the best thing you can say about Treliving and what the Leafs will want him to do is "Well, he hasn't proven he can't do it either!".

Also I suppose I could mention that if you look at their second-to-last jobs then Dubas was perceived as running a pretty successful OHL team while Treliving helped run the Coyotes who are to success what Abraham Lincoln is to satisfied theatre goers but, you know, again, I don't care about the Penguins much.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

While the statements by Dubas during his press conference are pointed to as items that swayed the Leafs and Shanahan to move in another direction, I think what the press conference actually did was connect the dots on why Dubas was throwing water bottles, arguing with fans and overall seeming a little unhinged during the playoffs.

 

[Guilt Trip]

While the statements by Dubas during his press conference are pointed to as items that swayed the Leafs and Shanahan to move in another direction, I think what the press conference actually did was connect the dots on why Dubas was throwing water bottles, arguing with fans and overall seeming a little unhinged during the playoffs.

Heard an interview with Burke and this was mentioned. His response was basically I'd be right there with him lol.