Leafs acquire Jack Campbell and Kyle Clifford from LA

[Deebo]

Let's not forget that the Leafs are expending valuable assets to fix the backup goalie problem, and have lost valuable points in the standings this year and last year, when the Leafs already had a passable/acceptable solution.

This is a horse that needs to die already. The logic behind keeping Sparks was sound, and it made no sense to let the AHL Goaltender of the year leave for nothing vs an aging career backup potentially in decline. It didn't work out. That's it.

I think it's a valid criticism, Dubas went with Hutch this year, and I think many people questioned that decision that was made before July 1st.

There's a report card on Dubas, and I think it's perfectly OK to give him a failing mark on his handling of the back-up goalie situation lately.

I think Bender is referring to the specific Sparks vs. McBackup question, not the "Did Dubas do a good job this off-season re: the backup goalie position" which, I agree, is a fair criticism.

However it's only really a valid criticism if you're prepared to endorse a specific alternative. Just wanting him to have done better isn't a criticism at all. Saying, as I have, that he should have traded(or let walk) one of Kerfoot/Kapanen/Johnsson(and I'd have been fine with it being any of the three) and using the resulting money/assets to improve the position is something that was in Dubas' power but that he chose not to do. Wanting him to keep all three but just have found a really good minimum salary goalie isn't a fair criticism.

The one name that stands out to me is Tristan Jarry in Pittsburgh, there were reports that he was available all summer and he carries a marginally lower cap hit than Hutch.

I don't what it would have taken to acquire him, but he is having a great year in Pittburgh.

 

[Kin]

The one name that stands out to me is Tristan Jarry in Pittsburgh, there were reports that he was available all summer and he carries a marginally lower cap hit than Hutch.

I don't what it would have taken to acquire him, but he is having a great year in Pittburgh.

But that's kind of what I mean. Even if those reports are true it's tough to criticize someone for a hypothetical trade whose pros and cons we can't really go over. I don't know for sure that Dubas could have substantially improved things by trading one of those three but I think he really should have given it a go.

 

[ZBBM]

Sounds to me like the Leafs need to fix that Vesuvius thing in front of their own net.  I wonder how.

 

[herman]

And he has converted a few freebies into legit NHL assets:
Moore was a dev camp invite and now he is Kyle Clifford
Justin Holl was an ECHL pick up and now he is Justin Holl, arguably the only reason our RD hasn?t imploded entirely.

OK, now you're really going out of your way to be complimentary of Dubas here.

Now? I?ve been singing this same song since 2017

 

[Bender]

Let's not forget that the Leafs are expending valuable assets to fix the backup goalie problem, and have lost valuable points in the standings this year and last year, when the Leafs already had a passable/acceptable solution.

This is a horse that needs to die already. The logic behind keeping Sparks was sound, and it made no sense to let the AHL Goaltender of the year leave for nothing vs an aging career backup potentially in decline. It didn't work out. That's it.

I think it's a valid criticism, Dubas went with Hutch this year, and I think many people questioned that decision that was made before July 1st.

There's a report card on Dubas, and I think it's perfectly OK to give him a failing mark on his handling of the back-up goalie situation lately.

I think Bender is referring to the specific Sparks vs. McBackup question, not the "Did Dubas do a good job this off-season re: the backup goalie position" which, I agree, is a fair criticism.

However it's only really a valid criticism if you're prepared to endorse a specific alternative. Just wanting him to have done better isn't a criticism at all. Saying, as I have, that he should have traded(or let walk) one of Kerfoot/Kapanen/Johnsson(and I'd have been fine with it being any of the three) and using the resulting money/assets to improve the position is something that was in Dubas' power but that he chose not to do. Wanting him to keep all three but just have found a really good minimum salary goalie isn't a fair criticism.

The one name that stands out to me is Tristan Jarry in Pittsburgh, there were reports that he was available all summer and he carries a marginally lower cap hit than Hutch.

I don't what it would have taken to acquire him, but he is having a great year in Pittburgh.

He was hyped a lot and I think that if the price was right I don't see why the Leafs wouldn't move on him if he was the answer. They weren't sold on Hutch clearly but Jarry didn't exactly have spectacular numbers either at the time. Campbell and Jarry only have similar career numbers now that Jarry is putting up a good season in front of a very good Pittsburgh team. Before that he didn't have much success in the NHL.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

https://twitter.com/TicTacTOmar/status/1225487139376377856

Yeah he's re-signing.

 

[Guilt Trip]

What am I looking at here? 

Like, the LA defence seems to be very effective in front of their own net?

Correct. Blue=good red=bad

Leafs = bad

Even though they're bad, I don't see anyone complaining about the point blank shots going in, minus a few in the GDT. Its the soft goals like the 4th one last night, or the 4th against the Panthers from behind the net. It's ok to see a softie here and there but when your goalie is giving up a couple a night, that's not good and that's what Hutch has been doing for the most part. I actually feel for the guy. He's been thrown into a position that he's not equipped to handle. Almost like putting Sandin out against McDavid or a Crosby every shift.

 

[bustaheims]

I think it's a valid criticism, Dubas went with Hutch this year, and I think many people questioned that decision that was made before July 1st.

I get the criticism, but, when you look at the UFA goalies from this summer, it was very much a valid choice, as well. Here are the UFA goalies from this summer with NHL experience:

Sergei Bobrovsky
Semyon Varlamov
Petr Mrazek
Robin Lehner
Mike Smith
Jared Coreau
Anthony Stolarz
Spencer Martin
Maxime Lagace
Scott Wedgewood
Zane McIntyre
Cal Talbot
JF Berube
Keith Kinkaid
Calvin Pickard
Curtis McElhinney
Andrew Hammond
Scott Darling
Michael Neuvirth
Chad Johnson
Al Montoya
Kari Lehtonen
Steve Mason
Joey MacDonald
Tyler Bunz
Mackenzie Skapski
Rob Zepp

The bold signed as starters or platoon goalies, the italicized are unsigned. The rest are potential backup options. Not a lot of good options on that list. Even less affordable ones. Other than McBackup and Talbot, the rest of the available goalies are either in the AHL or having similarly bad seasons. Talbot signed for $2.75M per - much more than the Leafs could afford for a backup.

The options were basically keep Hutch, hope you sign McBackup, or try to work out a trade. Jarry might have been available, but the cost is unknown (rumour is the Leafs did inquire, but Pittsburgh preferred to deal DeSmith). Reimer was moved as a cap dump, with a cap hit higher than the Leafs couldn't afford, and, considering their cap situation, Florida wasn't likely to retain enough to make it work.

 

[Guilt Trip]

I think it's a valid criticism, Dubas went with Hutch this year, and I think many people questioned that decision that was made before July 1st.

What decision was made before July 1st? That Hutch was backup? Leafs brought in Neuvirth after the summer but he didn't want to play. I think if Hutch wins that first game against the habs, things might have been different. Once a team loses confidence in a goalie, it's over.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Just watched the interviews with all of them and the excitement that they have is really really nice to see. Campbell talks like a little kid that just got the best present ever. Said when he told his parents we were traded to Toronto, it was one of those moments. I also read a quote from Doughty where he talked about Campbell being the hardest working guy on the team. Clifford said his 5 year old son's fav player is Muzz lol. Sounds like Dubas grabbed 2 quality people here.

 

[WAYNEINIONA]

Just watched the interviews with all of them and the excitement that they have is really really nice to see. Campbell talks like a little kid that just got the best present ever. Said when he told his parents we were traded to Toronto, it was one of those moments. I also read a quote from Doughty where he talked about Campbell being the hardest working guy on the team. Clifford said his 5 year old son's fav player is Muzz lol. Sounds like Dubas grabbed 2 quality people here.

I hope so. We could use a break about now. Clifford is another Ontario boy and his hometown is about 15 mins from Muzzin.

 

[pmrules]

Let's not forget that the Leafs are expending valuable assets to fix the backup goalie problem, and have lost valuable points in the standings this year and last year, when the Leafs already had a passable/acceptable solution.

This is a horse that needs to die already. The logic behind keeping Sparks was sound, and it made no sense to let the AHL Goaltender of the year leave for nothing vs an aging career backup potentially in decline. It didn't work out. That's it.

I agree this decision has been debated - but you and I disagree about the consequences of that decision.  That sound decision has ultimately led us to where we are today - expending assets to fix that "sound" and "logical" decision. 

Just because it doesn't fit a narrative, you just can't conclude that "It didn't work out. Thats it". 
It didn't work out as Sparks (and subsequently free asset Hutchinson) were not the answer, and we are now expending our limited assets to fix those decisions.

 

[herman]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2020/02/06/kyle-dubas-on-kyle-cliffords-toughness-weve-shied-away-from-players-that-have-those-elements-that-cant-play-he-can-play/

Kyle wore his cardigan

 

[Highlander]

There is a certain amount of risk in any decision, some people can't leave their houses as the fear of getting hurt is a risk factor they just can't handle. Keeping Sparks was the correct decision.  But to say limited assets, hell we have the best forward core we have ever had. Somebody was going to go, just glad it was not Johnsson or Kappi.  Moore wasn't playing his best hockey before his injury. I like the kid, but we needed a backup.

 

[disco]

It's a good day. Freddie back on the ice and a significant upgrade with their second goaltender. Reports are Campbell and Clifford are both beloved members of their former team. Leafs better today than they were yesterday, without the cost of a top-nine roster player or 1st round pick.

They're under the gun right simply due to the fact that it looks like they'll need 100pts to qualify unless two of CAR/CBJ/PHI/FLA go ice cold. That combined with the fact that Babs ran this team for 23 games means they're in tough, but they've got a good chance. 19-9-3 under Keefe and now spending $1-million+ on their backup.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

About F'n time. Telling me he couldn't have made this trade weeks ago.

From the Dubas press conference post-deal:
Q: "The timing is obviously of note. Why now versus maybe weeks or even a month ago?"

Dubas: "If it had been available to do then, we would?ve done it then."

 

[Guilt Trip]

About F'n time. Telling me he couldn't have made this trade weeks ago.

From the Dubas press conference post-deal:
Q: "The timing is obviously of note. Why now versus maybe weeks or even a month ago?"

Dubas: "If it had been available to do then, we would?ve done it then."

That speaks to how he really feels about Hutch. You always need a dance partner cuz if there isn't one, you look like a crazy mofo unless of course you're Billy Idol!

 

[ZBBM]

About F'n time. Telling me he couldn't have made this trade weeks ago.

From the Dubas press conference post-deal:
Q: "The timing is obviously of note. Why now versus maybe weeks or even a month ago?"

Dubas: "If it had been available to do then, we would?ve done it then."

That speaks to how he really feels about Hutch. You always need a dance partner cuz if there isn't one, you look like a crazy mofo unless of course you're Billy Idol!

So let's sink another drink
Cause it'll give me time to think

 

[LuncheonMeat]

About F'n time. Telling me he couldn't have made this trade weeks ago.

From the Dubas press conference post-deal:
Q: "The timing is obviously of note. Why now versus maybe weeks or even a month ago?"

Dubas: "If it had been available to do then, we would?ve done it then."

That speaks to how he really feels about Hutch. You always need a dance partner cuz if there isn't one, you look like a crazy mofo unless of course you're Billy Idol!

So let's sink another drink
Cause it'll give me time to think

"What set you free and brought you to be me babe? What set you free I need you hear by me."

- Sheldon Keefe, in a call to Kyle Clifford shortly after the trade

 

[Bender]

Let's not forget that the Leafs are expending valuable assets to fix the backup goalie problem, and have lost valuable points in the standings this year and last year, when the Leafs already had a passable/acceptable solution.

This is a horse that needs to die already. The logic behind keeping Sparks was sound, and it made no sense to let the AHL Goaltender of the year leave for nothing vs an aging career backup potentially in decline. It didn't work out. That's it.

I agree this decision has been debated - but you and I disagree about the consequences of that decision.  That sound decision has ultimately led us to where we are today - expending assets to fix that "sound" and "logical" decision. 

Just because it doesn't fit a narrative, you just can't conclude that "It didn't work out. Thats it". 
It didn't work out as Sparks (and subsequently free asset Hutchinson) were not the answer, and we are now expending our limited assets to fix those decisions.

In what world did I say the consequence of Dubas' decision wasn't bad? The outcome is bad, I'm not ignorant of that. But I'm not going to die on the hill of consequentialism. Being a consequentialist gives you the ability took look at decisions and their consequences in hindsight. To just look at the consequences is ignoring the fog in front of you when you make those choices.

Example: You have two job opportunities. One opportunity is better pay, better hours, and there's room for growth but has potential to be less stable. The other job is less pay, worse hours, probably more stability but no room for growth. What's your decision making process? If the job you choose fails and you're out on your ass within a year was your deliberation bad? The consequence is bad, no doubt, but the process to arrive at your decision likely was sound.

I'm not saying don't hold Kyle accountable for bad decisions, theres plenty to go around, but at the time it was made and the rationale for making said decision wasn't bad (this wasn't a Rask for Raycroft trade!). Things don't always work out and I think it's a foolish argument that most people would or should, at the time of making the decision, have let Sparks walk over Mac because you have the luxury of hindsight to say it didn't work out.