Leafs acquire Michael Grabner

[jdh1]

So, are you still forecasting a bottom 5 team this season?

Was I not clear enough? Yes. Bottom 5. Quite likely bottom 3.

Wow

Really? Wow? This is a team filled with 3rd and 4th line forwards. There's one somewhat established 1st line type talent on the roster in JvR. The team's next best scoring winger will be lucky to play more than 50 games. They have one top 6 centre, who may or may not be capable of handling 1st line duties. Does that sound like a team that should be competing for a playoff spot? That's a team that's destined for the basement.

I'm with you on your argument,I just can't see Babcock allowing this team to bottom out,unless all the wheels come off on the 18 wheeler and there is just no other option,but to tank.

The goalies are descent,the defence isn't bottom 5,the forwards are there, less Kessel.You got to figure the Kadri's and the Hollands are going to improve,plus the additions.

 

[bustaheims]

I'm with you on your argument,I just can't see Babcock allowing this team to bottom out,unless all the wheels come off on the 18 wheeler and there is just no other option,but to tank.

The goalies are descent,the defence isn't bottom 5,the forwards are there, less Kessel.You got to figure the Kadri's and the Hollands are going to improve,plus the additions.

Coaching can only go so far. At the end of the season, the team will get the results that are equivalent to their talent level - which is at or near the bottom of the league. The goalies have potential to be decent, but they're inconsistent and injury prone. The defence is . . . well, it's not good. It's not as bad as it's looked, but it's not good. The forwards are bad. There's no other way to put it. Even if Kadri and Holland show improvement - and I mean realistic improvement - that still won't make up for the loss of Kessel. The additions are really just replacements at the same level of the guys that were on the roster last season. That all adds up to a less talented team than the one that finished 4th last. Coaching isn't going to make a dent in that. It's certainly not going to lead to the near 30 point improved required to fight for a playoff spot.

There's not going to be any wheels falling off anything this season. It's just going to be a sleigh ride down the mountain.

 

[Frank E]

I'm with you on your argument,I just can't see Babcock allowing this team to bottom out,unless all the wheels come off on the 18 wheeler and there is just no other option,but to tank.

The goalies are descent,the defence isn't bottom 5,the forwards are there, less Kessel.You got to figure the Kadri's and the Hollands are going to improve,plus the additions.

Look, there's nothing wrong with being optimistic...but don't confuse it with realistic.

Babcock: "There's going to be pain."

There's nothing on paper here that suggests this team will be anything but a bottom feeder.  Like I said, go ahead and be hopeful, but there really isn't anything there. 

 

[Kin]

You know who's a decent goalie? Mike Smith. You know who else? Cam Ward. Corey Schneider is a damn sight better than decent.

I keep saying this but you can't just look at the Leafs without any context. The very, very minor improvements they've made really don't mean much when you look at the way that other teams have significantly improved. Buffalo has likely added three top 6 quality centers. Edmonton has made a bunch of additions, including a rookie who figures to be pretty good. Even if the Leafs had maintained the quality of the roster from last season, which they clearly haven't, they still figure to be worse relative to the rest of the bottom feeders of the league.

 

[L K]

Grabner's a good player, but his name really amounts to more than he actually produces.

He's 27 and only has 317 games to his name and he hasn't come close to replicating the 30 goal season he did in his rookie year.  He should be a reasonable draft pick flip player at the deadline and the Leafs really only traded a bunch of lower level prospects and freed up logjams.

Sparks really didn't deserve to be in the ECHL and Bibeau deserves to be the starter over Gibson.  Therefore Gibson was expendable.  Matt Finn and Tom Nilsson are both guys who look to be bottom pairing guys. Finn really looked disappointing for a 2nd round draft pick.

I did somewhat like Carter Verhaeghe though.

 

[Kin]

I did somewhat like Carter Verhaeghe though.

Yeah, but I think that there might be a bit of a pump the breaks on the idea of using the ECHL as the equivalent to single A. I think they probably want the Marlies to be a little less crowded as well.

 

[L K]

I did somewhat like Carter Verhaeghe though.

Yeah, but I think that there might be a bit of a pump the breaks on the idea of using the ECHL as the equivalent to single A. I think they probably want the Marlies to be a little less crowded as well.

Absolutely.  I think it's also somewhat telling when the player I'm most disappointed about losing in a trade I can only classify as "somewhat liking".

 

[cabber24]

Remember Fletcher said back in 08 that we only had on top six forward (Antropov) we're still in the same boat (JVR).

The good thing is we have a few more prospects in the cupboard now and we actually still own our draft picks. We have so much to look forward too... if I had the guess the next time we make the playoffs I would guess 5 years.

 

[Bullfrog]

Remember Fletcher said back in 08 that we only had on top six forward (Antropov) we're still in the same boat (JVR).

The good thing is we have a few more prospects in the cupboard now and we actually still own our draft picks.

Kadri is absolutely a top six player, so is Lupul. Though not a popular opinion, I'd say that Bozak is as well.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Remember Fletcher said back in 08 that we only had on top six forward (Antropov) we're still in the same boat (JVR).

The good thing is we have a few more prospects in the cupboard now and we actually still own our draft picks.

I'd say it's 2.5 (with Kadri and the half season Lupul will provide).

 

[L K]

You know who's a decent goalie? Mike Smith. You know who else? Cam Ward. Corey Schneider is a damn sight better than decent.

I keep saying this but you can't just look at the Leafs without any context. The very, very minor improvements they've made really don't mean much when you look at the way that other teams have significantly improved. Buffalo has likely added three top 6 quality centers. Edmonton has made a bunch of additions, including a rookie who figures to be pretty good. Even if the Leafs had maintained the quality of the roster from last season, which they clearly haven't, they still figure to be worse relative to the rest of the bottom feeders of the league.

Using the average of the last 2-years of play (and rounding up at .5), the Leafs current roster looks like:

Lupul - Bozak - JVR
Parenteau - Kadri - Grabner
Matthias - Holland - Winnik
Arcobello - Spaling - Komarov
Panik - Boyes - Glencross

(16/17) - (21/28) - (29/30)
(11/17) - (19/26) - (10/10)
(15/10) - (9/10)  - (8/25)
(11/14) - (11/19)  - (8/18)
(7/8)    - (18/20)  - (13/18)

The Leafs have a lot of name players but their overall production is that of a team of 3rd liners.  Those kinds of teams tend to struggle to score because they really only gain an advantage over other teams 3rd and 4th lines.  We still have to watch them play against the 1st/2nd lines of other teams and that's not going to be pretty.  This team is going to struggle to score consistently.

 

[cabber24]

Remember Fletcher said back in 08 that we only had on top six forward (Antropov) we're still in the same boat (JVR).

The good thing is we have a few more prospects in the cupboard now and we actually still own our draft picks.

I'd say it's 2.5 (with Kadri and the half season Lupul will provide).

Okay I'll give Kadri top 6 status... Lupul gets a no from me.

 

[herman]

The Leafs have a lot of name players but their overall production is that of a team of 3rd liners.  Those kinds of teams tend to struggle to score because they really only gain an advantage over other teams 3rd and 4th lines.  We still have to watch them play against the 1st/2nd lines of other teams and that's not going to be pretty.  This team is going to struggle to score consistently.

^ This.

 

[cabber24]

The Leafs have a lot of name players but their overall production is that of a team of 3rd liners.  Those kinds of teams tend to struggle to score because they really only gain an advantage over other teams 3rd and 4th lines.  We still have to watch them play against the 1st/2nd lines of other teams and that's not going to be pretty.  This team is going to struggle to score consistently.

^ This.

NSH has made the playoffs with a weak top 6 lots of times but their D has always been superior.

 

[herman]

The Leafs have a lot of name players but their overall production is that of a team of 3rd liners.  Those kinds of teams tend to struggle to score because they really only gain an advantage over other teams 3rd and 4th lines.  We still have to watch them play against the 1st/2nd lines of other teams and that's not going to be pretty.  This team is going to struggle to score consistently.

^ This.

NSH has made the playoffs with a weak top 6 lots of times but their D has always been superior.

NSH makes it because of Rinne, Weber, and a system that has the forwards supporting their defenders in retrieving pucks and turning it up the ice. The Leafs have had none of that. This year, they might have the structure.

 

[Highlander]

We cleared out a lot of players that were never going to wear the Jersey and got a very good player in return, perhaps one we can flip for a good draft pick down the road.  Interesting comment by Hitchcock in regards to Babcock. He said something to the effect of the Leafs may be much better than expected this year. Not advocating, just reporting as either way I don't really care?I am waiting for the kidz to play in the next three years.

 

[ZBBM]

There's no way this team makes the playoffs this year.  Even if Boyes & Grabner play well and Lupul isn't hurt and the goalies don't suck -- meaning if we are somehow improbably within shouting distance of the playoffs come February -- management will sell off assets at the deadline if not sooner.  If we aren't like a flounder flat-side up/down on the bottom of the sea by the deadline, we will sink to those abyssal depths in the last 6 weeks of the season.  * blub blub *

 

[Highlander]

Its a lot like building a house, have to put in footings that can hold the solid foundation.  The footings and foundation are our new overhauled Management. We now have something to build off of, which is new for the Leafs, for as their name was we have been floating in the wind for a long long time. With a solid base of young prospects we can start to build the rest of this structure. And know it will take some time.

 

[Kin]

NSH has made the playoffs with a weak top 6 lots of times but their D has always been superior.

The thing about the Nashville teams you're talking about is that they didn't have much in the way of scoring from their top 6, no, but they usually had a bunch of solid defenders and guys who were well accustomed to the system. This Leafs team will have neither.

 

[caver]

There's no way this team makes the playoffs this year.  Even if Boyes & Grabner play well and Lupul isn't hurt and the goalies don't suck -- meaning if we are somehow improbably within shouting distance of the playoffs come February -- management will sell off assets at the deadline if not sooner.  If we aren't like a flounder flat-side up/down on the bottom of the sea by the deadline, we will sink to those abyssal depths in the last 6 weeks of the season.  * blub blub *

..and we will watch this team lose and feel good about it knowing that it's part of the plan...