Leafs @ Flyers - Dec. 3rd, 7:00pm - TSN4, TSN 1050

[Goaliedave31]

Sorry, screwed that up.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

When we are talking about whether or not our stars are as good as or better than other teams stars, one thing that is important to keep in mind is that throughout the team's history, no matter how successful or not the team has been, our stars have never been quite as good as theirs, with a few exceptions. Since 1937-38, when Gord Drillon won the league scoring championship, no Leaf has won it. Sittler and Gilmour came close, but that's it. I believe that for long time fans, or those well aware of the team's past, this is a constant thorn in the side. Here we are, in 2019, and our best are pretty good, but not in the way McDavid, Draisaitl, McKinnon, Ovechkin, and a select few others are. Until a Leaf dominates the league in the way that these players do, we will never be satisfied with our best guys just being 'pretty good".

Agree. Matthews' rookie acknowledgement aside, The NHL awards have been for other teams for as long as I can remember.

I think on the other hand, the fishbowl of toronto tends to make fans overvalue their players in many cases rather than the other way round. Take a recent case in point - Nylander. He's back on track! He's fulfilling his destiny of being a star player! He's untouchable! Amazing season so far! We finally have nice things!

Last I checked, he's got the same number of points this season as Connor Brown.

 

[Kin]

Last I checked, he's got the same number of points this season as Connor Brown.

You should probably check again.

 

[herman]

I think one of the reasons people lust after the stars on other teams is that they only catch the highlights and those players feature prominently largely in positive light visually and in commentary.

On the home team, our stars are watched regularly with invested expectations regularly enough that their strengths are taken for granted and flaws are magnified. Once that little seed of disappointment germinates, confirmation bias fuels the rest.

The appearance of trying doesn't necessarily equate to effective.

Thanks herman. I think this is a good observation.

I thought you were going to shred me for using 3 adverbs in one sentence without commas.

When we are talking about whether or not our stars are as good as or better than other teams stars, one thing that is important to keep in mind is that throughout the team's history, no matter how successful or not the team has been, our stars have never been quite as good as theirs, with a few exceptions. Since 1937-38, when Gord Drillon won the league scoring championship, no Leaf has won it. Sittler and Gilmour came close, but that's it. I believe that for long time fans, or those well aware of the team's past, this is a constant thorn in the side. Here we are, in 2019, and our best are pretty good, but not in the way McDavid, Draisaitl, McKinnon, Ovechkin, and a select few others are. Until a Leaf dominates the league in the way that these players do, we will never be satisfied with our best guys just being 'pretty good".

Matthews is technically in that conversation, but he has played restrained minutes these first 3 seasons, marred by injury, and didn't get the playoff rope that the other names mentioned do. Just a simple cut of the data by rates and it paints a pretty clear picture that we've got a good one. He's 22 and keeping pace with (and/or exceeding) age-equivalent/era-adjusted production.

Heck, Nylander/Marner outpaced MacKinnon's ELC years. I don't know that they hit his current level in their primes, but this team has three of these kids with lots of runway left. There's going to be a bit of production cannibalization given that there is only one puck to play with, but good players fuel good players either way.

 

[herman]

Last I checked, he's got the same number of points this season as Connor Brown.

You should probably check again.

LMAO

Nylander is currently outscoring every member of the senators

 

[Kin]

Heck, Nylander/Marner outpaced MacKinnon's ELC years. I don't know that they hit his current level in their primes, but this team has three of these kids with lots of runway left.

They're 22, 22 and 23. The idea that anyone is having serious discussions about trading any of them right now because of what they aren't yet is just mind blowing.

 

[herman]

Heck, Nylander/Marner outpaced MacKinnon's ELC years. I don't know that they hit his current level in their primes, but this team has three of these kids with lots of runway left.

They're 22, 22 and 23. The idea that anyone is having serious discussions about trading any of them right now because of what they aren't yet is just mind blowing.

I chalk it up to an emotional reaction to what people are seeing and the narrative being fed on tv panels because they need to cover the team 24/7 and every minute event needs to be dissected as it happens. The only result of that myopic analysis is hyperbole in both directions.

 

[Frank E]

Last I checked, he's got the same number of points this season as Connor Brown.

You should probably check again.

LMAO

Nylander is currently outscoring every member of the senators

22 points in 30 games - Nylander
17 points in 29 games - Brown

In case anyone was wondering how much more awesome Nylander's production has been while he's played 28 more minutes of PP time.

Connor Brown also played 87 minutes on the PK, while Nylander has played a grand total of 26 seconds of PK time this entire season.

Nylander has a cap hit of $6.9m, Connor Brown's is $2.2m.

 

[Kin]

Nylander is playing at a 30 goal/60 point pace. Brown is playing at a 9 goal/48 point pace.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Gonna be fun to re-visit that at the end of the season. Brown had a hot start, congrats to him. But he just recently snapped a 16-game goalless drought and has 5 points in his last 16 games.

 

[Kin]

Gonna be fun to re-visit that at the end of the season. Brown had a hot start, congrats to him. But he just recently snapped a 16-game goalless drought and has 5 points in his last 16 games.

December may just be the first month all year where Brown hits the back of the net twice. Fingers crossed!

 

[bustaheims]

Nylander is playing at a 30 goal/60 point pace. Brown is playing at a 9 goal/48 point pace.

And, in his last 16 games, he has 8 goals and 13 points. That's a 41 goal, 67 point pace.

Definitely back on track, and well ahead of Connor freaking Brown's 1 goal and 5 points in his last 16.

 

[Frank E]

Nylander is playing at a 30 goal/60 point pace. Brown is playing at a 9 goal/48 point pace.

And, in his last 16 games, he has 8 goals and 13 points. That's a 41 goal, 67 point pace.

Definitely back on track, and well ahead of Connor freaking Brown's 1 goal and 5 points in his last 16.

I'm saving this quote...

 

[Kin]

I'm saving this quote...

For reference if you ever decide to try a fact based argument?

 

[Frank E]

I'm saving this quote...

For reference if you ever decide to try a fact based argument?

Really Nik?  Settle down.

I'm saving it because I think over the years (as busta has been around for the entirety of Nylander's pro career) we've seen Nylander go through stretches of very inconsistent play.  So I find it funny that we're using projections based on shortened periods of time to define "Nylander is back", or "has arrived".

I was using facts there above with the totals YTD of their production.  I expect some kudos for that.  Big ones.

 

[Kin]

So I find it funny that we're using projections based on shortened periods of time to define "Nylander is back", or "has arrived".

Yes. It is funny that those things have been said by...literally nobody here.

 

[bustaheims]

Really Nik?  Settle down.

I'm saving it because I think over the years (as busta has been around for the entirety of Nylander's pro career) we've seen Nylander go through stretches of very inconsistent play.  So I find it funny that we're using projections based on shortened periods of time to define "Nylander is back", or "has arrived".

I was using facts there above with the totals YTD of their production.  I expect some kudos for that.  Big ones.

I mean, it's 20% of the season I'm looking at, and I'm also not saying he's going to hit the totals he's on pace for in that time-or that Brown is going to stay that terrible (though, I'd say that's more likely). It's more to suggest that his play recently shows that, at the very least, he's performing at a level similar to his first two seasons on the team, and is possibly going to exceed his previous career totals.

 

[Frank E]

Really Nik?  Settle down.

I'm saving it because I think over the years (as busta has been around for the entirety of Nylander's pro career) we've seen Nylander go through stretches of very inconsistent play.  So I find it funny that we're using projections based on shortened periods of time to define "Nylander is back", or "has arrived".

I was using facts there above with the totals YTD of their production.  I expect some kudos for that.  Big ones.

I mean, it's 20% of the season I'm looking at, and I'm also not saying he's going to hit the totals he's on pace for in that time-or that Brown is going to stay that terrible (though, I'd say that's more likely). It's more to suggest that his play recently shows that, at the very least, he's performing at a level similar to his first two seasons on the team, and is possibly going to exceed his previous career totals.

I don't disagree with any of this. 

 

[bustaheims]

When we are talking about whether or not our stars are as good as or better than other teams stars, one thing that is important to keep in mind is that throughout the team's history, no matter how successful or not the team has been, our stars have never been quite as good as theirs, with a few exceptions. Since 1937-38, when Gord Drillon won the league scoring championship, no Leaf has won it. Sittler and Gilmour came close, but that's it. I believe that for long time fans, or those well aware of the team's past, this is a constant thorn in the side. Here we are, in 2019, and our best are pretty good, but not in the way McDavid, Draisaitl, McKinnon, Ovechkin, and a select few others are. Until a Leaf dominates the league in the way that these players do, we will never be satisfied with our best guys just being 'pretty good".

Matthews is technically in that conversation, but he has played restrained minutes these first 3 seasons, marred by injury, and didn't get the playoff rope that the other names mentioned do. Just a simple cut of the data by rates and it paints a pretty clear picture that we've got a good one. He's 22 and keeping pace with (and/or exceeding) age-equivalent/era-adjusted production.

Matthews is 100% in that conversation. Since he's entered the league, only 5 players have scored more goals, and only 2 have scored at a better goals per game rate. Hard to argue that wouldn't qualify as "dominating the league."

 

[Frank E]

When we are talking about whether or not our stars are as good as or better than other teams stars, one thing that is important to keep in mind is that throughout the team's history, no matter how successful or not the team has been, our stars have never been quite as good as theirs, with a few exceptions. Since 1937-38, when Gord Drillon won the league scoring championship, no Leaf has won it. Sittler and Gilmour came close, but that's it. I believe that for long time fans, or those well aware of the team's past, this is a constant thorn in the side. Here we are, in 2019, and our best are pretty good, but not in the way McDavid, Draisaitl, McKinnon, Ovechkin, and a select few others are. Until a Leaf dominates the league in the way that these players do, we will never be satisfied with our best guys just being 'pretty good".

Matthews is technically in that conversation, but he has played restrained minutes these first 3 seasons, marred by injury, and didn't get the playoff rope that the other names mentioned do. Just a simple cut of the data by rates and it paints a pretty clear picture that we've got a good one. He's 22 and keeping pace with (and/or exceeding) age-equivalent/era-adjusted production.

Matthews is 100% in that conversation. Since he's entered the league, only 5 players have scored more goals, and only 2 have scored at a better goals per game rate. Hard to argue that wouldn't qualify as "dominating the league."

Matthews isn't in those top-tier award talks though. 

Tavares was tied for 17th in Hart voting last year, and was close on the Richard.  Marner was 14th in Selke voting, Rielly was 5th in Norris for 18-19.

Freddie was 4th in Vezina voting in 17-18.  Matthews was 8th in Lady Byng that same year, but I don't think that's the kind of stuff we're talking about.

And I don't really think any of them are trending toward an award winning season this year either.

Here are the goal scoring totals for reg. season from 17-18 to today:

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggregate=1&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20172018&seasonTo=20192020&gameType=2&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=goals