Leafs @ Hurricanes - Feb. 20th, 7:00pm - SNO, TSN 1050

[Kin]

Just went back and looked at that draft (referring to the Lindros year). Leafs had also traded their second round pick (of course). There were a lot of impact players in those two rounds...Forsberg, Rolston, Kovalev, Naslund, Whitney. Ozolinsh, Palffy, Zhitnik, and William Nylanders father would all have been available at the Leafs second round spot.

Goodness. It's almost as if the team were being run by a senile old lunatic who didn't care if they won or lost.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

In the famous words of Joe Bowen from another loss to the Hurricanes, bless you, boys.

 

[Bullfrog]

This is getting crazy. I know the team is bad, but, even bad teams win once in awhile, right?

 

[Redleaf]

This is getting crazy. I know the team is bad, but, even bad teams win once in awhile, right?

Not during the course of a proper tank.

 

[moon111]

Most winning teams have that one top player.  And you build around them.  The Brian Burke era took allot of nothing and built a surrounding cast around nobody.  Had there been that one young stud player, the Leafs would be in really great shape. 

 

[Joe S.]

Most winning teams have that one top player.  And you build around them.  The Brian Burke era took allot of nothing and built a surrounding cast around nobody.  Had there been that one young stud player, the Leafs would be in really great shape.

I'm not defending anything here, but I really believe Burke thought he got that in Phaneuf.

 

[bustaheims]

Most winning teams have that one top player.  And you build around them.  The Brian Burke era took allot of nothing and built a surrounding cast around nobody.  Had there been that one young stud player, the Leafs would be in really great shape.

Most winning teams have a few top players and are built pretty solid from top to bottom. Teams that build around just one guy tend not to have much success.

 

[Chris]

I think he expected that player to be Kessel...and if the Leafs had managed to surround him with the right kind of players - players capable of winning puck battles/maintaining possession and compensating for Phil's defensive "inefficiencies", it may have worked. Instead, he has spent the vast majority of his time with players who have the same faults he does (Bozak in particular, JVR too) which magnifies his weakness. Add to that the lack of a good team defense/defensive system and it just didn't work out.

I don't think Phaneuf himself has been the problem. He's played a lot of minutes against the opponents best players, and generally done OK. Not well enough to justify the contract but that is on management. Also, I don't think he should have been pushed into the captaincy as he doesn't appear to have the right qualities. Leafs would have been better off if they'd acquired an established "character" type player (Winnik/Santorelli type perhaps?) to be captain.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Most winning teams have that one top player.  And you build around them.  The Brian Burke era took allot of nothing and built a surrounding cast around nobody.  Had there been that one young stud player, the Leafs would be in really great shape.

Name a team that has had success that are built around one top player?

 

[Kin]

I think he expected that player to be Kessel...and if the Leafs had managed to surround him with the right kind of players - players capable of winning puck battles/maintaining possession and compensating for Phil's defensive "inefficiencies", it may have worked. Instead, he has spent the vast majority of his time with players who have the same faults he does (Bozak in particular, JVR too) which magnifies his weakness. Add to that the lack of a good team defense/defensive system and it just didn't work out.

I think, though, that the problem with that is that Burke never really seemed to have a concrete plan for realistically adding "the right kind of players". He traded away the best asset the team would have to do that to get Kessel in the first place and from then on sort of seemed to cross his fingers that a great free agent would be available(and willing to sign with the Leafs) or that a team would be willing to trade the Leafs a top centre/defenseman in an incredibly lopsided trade.

 

[Kin]

Most winning teams have that one top player.  And you build around them.  The Brian Burke era took allot of nothing and built a surrounding cast around nobody.  Had there been that one young stud player, the Leafs would be in really great shape.

Name a team that has had success that are built around one top player?

I think that's a misunderstanding of what it means to "build around" a player. I don't think it means that you never add other good players but instead that a lot of your decisions on who to add are related to that player. Take the Blackhawks with Kane, for instance. I'm guessing that part of the reason they decided to draft Toews over someone like Kessel or Nik Backstrom is that they knew in Kane they had that dynamic offensive playe in place. Ditto in that draft with the Penguins drafting Jordan Staal over that collection of players who would go on to be great offensively. They had Malkin-Crosby so they wanted to add something complimentary.

 

[Chris]

I think he expected that player to be Kessel...and if the Leafs had managed to surround him with the right kind of players - players capable of winning puck battles/maintaining possession and compensating for Phil's defensive "inefficiencies", it may have worked. Instead, he has spent the vast majority of his time with players who have the same faults he does (Bozak in particular, JVR too) which magnifies his weakness. Add to that the lack of a good team defense/defensive system and it just didn't work out.

I think, though, that the problem with that is that Burke never really seemed to have a concrete plan for realistically adding "the right kind of players". He traded away the best asset the team would have to do that to get Kessel in the first place and from then on sort of seemed to cross his fingers that a great free agent would be available(and willing to sign with the Leafs) or that a team would be willing to trade the Leafs a top centre/defenseman in an incredibly lopsided trade.

Yeah, pretty much! I didn't like the trade at the time and was hoping that they'd instead go with the tear-it-down method. But, even with that - with a player as skilled as Kessel, it may not have been necessary to surround him with players like Crosby or Stamkos...it may have worked if his linemates had less skill but more grit. Maybe if he'd been with someone like Santorelli, who has a decent (but not exceptional) skill set but works incredibly hard.

 

[Kin]

Yeah, pretty much! I didn't like the trade at the time and was hoping that they'd instead go with the tear-it-down method. But, even with that - with a player as skilled as Kessel, it may not have been necessary to surround him with players like Crosby or Stamkos...it may have worked if his linemates had less skill but more grit. Maybe if he'd been with someone like Santorelli, who has a decent (but not exceptional) skill set but works incredibly hard.

Dude, come on. Mike Santorelli didn't invent hard work. I guarantee you that even to carve out the little career he's had, Tyler Bozak worked his butt off. I know we like to fetishize grit  as Leafs fans but this team was not going to win anything with 3rd line cast-offs like Santorelli in prominent positions.

 

[Chris]

Is it really so far-fetched? Regardless of how hard Bozak has worked, look at the results this year. Bozak playing top line minutes almost exclusively with Kessel and on the first power play unit: 57 games, 16-21-37 and -18. Santorelli playing less minutes and with who? And no power play time: 57 games, 11-18-29 and +7.
Only 8 points difference (and Santorelli +25 better than Bozak).

I'm not saying that playing someone like Santorelli (and that's the key, like Santorelli...not necessarily Santorelli) would turn the Leafs into champions, but it might result in better overall performance from Kessel (and thus the team, probably)

Maybe JVR-Santorelli-Kessel would be far superior to JVR-Bozak-Kessel. Maybe not. I don't think it was ever tried.

 

[Kin]

Is it really so far-fetched? Regardless of how hard Bozak has worked, look at the results this year. Bozak playing top line minutes almost exclusively with Kessel and on the first power play unit: 57 games, 16-21-37 and -18. Santorelli playing less minutes and with who? And no power play time: 57 games, 11-18-29 and +7.
Only 8 points difference (and Santorelli +25 better than Bozak).

Well, leaving aside the general meaninglessness of +/-, that's the problem with any one year snap shot. Bozak was also Kessel's centre last year and Bozak scored at a 69 point pace while Kessel and JVR both had terrific years. Ditto the year before where the team made the playoffs largely on the back of how good that top line was.

And Santorelli hasn't played with a collection of nobodies. His most frequent linemate this year is Kadri.

I'm not saying that playing someone like Santorelli (and that's the key, like Santorelli...not necessarily Santorelli) would turn the Leafs into champions, but it might result in better overall performance from Kessel (and thus the team, probably)

Literally any hypothetical you can pose about hockey might be true. The trick is coming up with something that has evidence behind it and to make a case that it is probably true. Teams don't have significant success without legitimate #1 centres and Kessel's performance with Bozak has been largely terrific before this year(and it's still been pretty good this year). So to blame Kessel's downturn on Bozak runs directly into the teeth of the facts.

 

[Chris]

So what's the difference compared to last year?

I don't completely agree about +/-. I know everyone is gung-ho about the new advanced stats, but there is a reason why JVR/Bozak/Kessel are floating around -20 and Santorelli was at +7 before the trade. All you have to do is watch a few games. Even when the Leafs were in the midst of their big surge, the top line was constantly hemmed in their own end and giving up more scoring chances than they generated. I remember a friend of mine (Ranger fan) telling me how great the Leafs looked and I just laughed, told him their play was unsustainable and they most likely wouldn't make the playoffs (this was when they were about 3 points out of first). You could just see it despite the results they were getting. So the question is, what is different compared to last year, when Bozak scored at a 69 point pace?

 

[Kin]

So what's the difference compared to last year?

Player performance can vary from year to year for any number of reasons. Kessel might just be having a worse year this year. Maybe he's got lingering injuries or the losing got to him or the coaching change...who knows?

Regardless, if you want to improve the top line it will involve putting better players on it. That doesn't necessarily mean Crosby and Stamkos but it does mean legitimate 1st line players.

I don't completely agree about +/-. I know everyone is gung-ho about the new advanced stats, but there is a reason why JVR/Bozak/Kessel are floating around -20 and Santorelli was at +7 before the trade.

Is it the same reason why Bozak had the best +/- on the team among full-time forwards last year? Is it the same reason why Rod Brind'Amour, who had good offensive skills and was known for being fanatical about hard work, was a -62 for his career? Or why a player like Ovechkin can wildly swing back and forth from year to year?

Santorelli had a good year. He was a valuable 5 on 5 player. He was well cast in his role. But there's a reason he went for a fairly modest price to the Preds.

 

[Chris]

I've wondered about whether Kessel has a lingering injury problem. He looks like he's laboring out there, and like he's conserving his energy for one offensive attempt per shift. Can't recall if he's looked that way in past years, but it could explain a lot.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I've wondered about whether Kessel has a lingering injury problem. He looks like he's laboring out there, and like he's conserving his energy for one offensive attempt per shift. Can't recall if he's looked that way in past years, but it could explain a lot.

Horachek mentioned recently Kessel has been dealing with some sort of injury but it wasn't disclosed what it is.

 

[Frank E]

I've wondered about whether Kessel has a lingering injury problem. He looks like he's laboring out there, and like he's conserving his energy for one offensive attempt per shift. Can't recall if he's looked that way in past years, but it could explain a lot.

Horachek mentioned recently Kessel has been dealing with some sort of injury but it wasn't disclosed what it is.

If he wasn't playing so bad, I'd suggest sitting him then if he's injured.