Leafs jersey number conventions?

[Deebo]

I think you'd have to agree, though, that looking at the sports landscape as a whole the idea that retiring the numbers of the greatest players is the appropriate honour is a significant majority opinion.

I agree that the vast majority other North American pro sports franchises retire the numbers of their greatest players.

 

[Bullfrog]

I also agree with that statement. I don't think that's ever been in question.

 

[Kin]

If Dave Keon wants to sulk because the team won't change its policy for him, I think that's on him more than it's on the team.

I've never gotten the impression that Keon is sulking about anything. Quite the contrary, he seems relatively content to have little to no association with the team at all. It's the team that continues to make overtures to him and wanting him to be involved with the various ceremonies that would involve him. They've asked him what he'd want to come back and be honoured by the club, he's told them and they've refused.

 

[Kin]

I agree that the vast majority other North American pro sports franchises retire the numbers of their greatest players.

Right. Which creates a certain standard. Throw in that the other teams who do both treat the retirement of a number as the greater honour and I absolutely see why Keon feels the way he does. Keon left the team thinking that the way the Leafs treat their players isn't up to an industry standard and clearly, he thinks that it continues.

 

[Bullfrog]

Perhaps it's just me, but this doesn't sound even remotely complicated.

I think it's pretty clear in that quote that I'm referring to your post about "highlighting uniqueness".

Yes, and that's the one to which I was replying. The uniqueness between the numbers that have been retired by the Leafs and those that have been simply honoured isn't at all complicated. The two retired numbers are for guys that died or suffered career-ending injuries. That's not difficult to understand.

I can see you're obviously passionate about this issue, but to me I see very little difference between having a number honoured or retired.

Fair enough. I hope, though, that you'll understand that when one of the greatest players in franchise history is emphatically saying that there is a great difference it's very difficult for me to not see it as a fact that he's right.

I see it as his opinion. An obviously valid one that deserves consideration, but just an opinion nonetheless. I'll be honest, I think it comes across as a bit whiny and selfish. He's been duly honoured in my mind.

And I'm not overly concerned about what the "other guys" do. There's at least 4 (or 5?) other NHL clubs that seem to feel the same.

Which ones would those be?

This one is a bit embarrassing for me. I was relying on a Wikipedia article that stated the Leafs, Flames, and Blues have that policy. However, that was very easily refuted. Obviously Brett Hull and Lanny MacDonald have their numbers retired. We'll just ignore that that's only 3 and not 4 or 5.

Hey, I understand my point of view is most likely in the minority here, but it is what it is. I fully support the Leafs current stance on honouring numbers and the concept of letting "current players ... build upon the legacy of those numbers." <---From Peddie's review of the issue in 2005. I think you honour the player, not the number. And though to some the number is the epitome of symbols for the player, I think it belongs to the team and should be available for future players to wear.

 

[riff raff]

If Dave Keon wants to sulk because the team won't change its policy for him, I think that's on him more than it's on the team.

I've never gotten the impression that Keon is sulking about anything. Quite the contrary, he seems relatively content to have little to no association with the team at all. It's the team that continues to make overtures to him and wanting him to be involved with the various ceremonies that would involve him. They've asked him what he'd want to come back and be honoured by the club, he's told them and they've refused.

I think that's a potato/potahto thing as to whether that constitutes 'sulking'.

Bottom line: he wants the team to ignore its policy to honour him.

 

[Kin]

Yes, and that's the one to which I was replying. The uniqueness between the numbers that have been retired by the Leafs and those that have been simply honoured isn't at all complicated. The two retired numbers are for guys that died or suffered career-ending injuries. That's not difficult to understand.

But, again, I'm not confused as to what they did. What you did make sound complicated was the reasoning behind it and the need to preserve a separate honour for the purpose of honouring the "uniqueness" of their circumstances.

So, again, I completely understand the what. It's the why that strikes me as convoluted.

I see it as his opinion. An obviously valid one that deserves consideration, but just an opinion nonetheless.

Personally, I was always brought up to believe that when it comes to doing something for someone else it's their opinion that should be paramount. Different strokes, I suppose.

This one is a bit embarrassing for me. I was relying on a Wikipedia article that stated the Leafs, Flames, and Blues have that policy. However, that was very easily refuted. Obviously Brett Hull and Lanny MacDonald have their numbers retired. We'll just ignore that that's only 3 and not 4 or 5.

So that would be 0, then. And, in fact, the Flames and Blues are actually two clubs who, along with the Blue Jays, reserve retiring numbers for their greatest players and leave the "honouring" to their lesser lights.

 

[riff raff]

I agree that the vast majority other North American pro sports franchises retire the numbers of their greatest players.

Right. Which creates a certain standard. Throw in that the other teams who do both treat the retirement of a number as the greater honour and I absolutely see why Keon feels the way he does. Keon left the team thinking that the way the Leafs treat their players isn't up to an industry standard and clearly, he thinks that it continues.

It doesn't really matter what other teams do - it matters what the Leafs do and their internal consistency.

To push the gold watch analogy - if you work for Company ABC that does not give a gold watch when you retire, and you see Company XYZ that does - it doesn't mean Company ABC owes you a watch. Whatever Company ABC does is what Company ABC does.

If Keon had been told that the Leafs don't retire numbers and then saw them retire, say, Red Kelly's number - he would have a reason to complain. But the Leafs have been consistent in the application in their policy.

 

[Kin]

I think that's a potato/potahto thing as to whether that constitutes 'sulking'.

It's not though. He seems entirely content to have nothing to do with the club.

Bottom line: he wants the team to ignore its policy to honour him.

No, he wants the team to change their policy, one he doesn't see as being up to the standards of the industry that he excelled in. I'm guessing that Keon left the Leafs thinking they were a second-rate organization and that their instinct to preserve a second-rate policy indicates that little has changed.

 

[Kin]

It doesn't really matter what other teams do - it matters what the Leafs do and their internal consistency.

Sure it does. How you're treated, how it compares to others in your industry, it absolutely matters. The people getting the gold watches are going to feel more valued than the people who get kicked out the door.

To push the gold watch analogy - if you work for Company ABC that does not give a gold watch when you retire, and you see Company XYZ that does - it doesn't mean Company ABC owes you a watch.

No, but it does mean that Company ABC doesn't value their retiring employees the way Company XYZ does.

 

[riff raff]

No, but it does mean that Company ABC doesn't value their retiring employees the way Company XYZ does.

This is true if value is only determined by a gold watch.

 

[Kin]

This is true if value is only determined by a gold watch.

No, it's true regardless. I mean, I suppose you could say that value is also demonstrated by how they actually treat their employees while they're there but something tells me that's not something Keon feels all that better about.

 

[rdowdall]

If there is no difference between honoring and retiring a number, then why is Gretzky's number retired and not honored?  It's not like people aren't going to know who #99 was.  Also, why isn't Howe's number retired by everyone?  Or Orr's?  What do you do if someone comes in and smashes all of Gretzky's records?

There should be no more 14's for the Leafs.  Keon was 14.  I would argue that Bower's number should be taken out as well.

Although, I have always found that funny.  What if it takes a while to get around to retiring a number and someone on the current team has that number?  Then that number is sort of associated with the guy who got it retired and the dude who lost his number mid season.

 

[Kin]

Although, I have always found that funny.  What if it takes a while to get around to retiring a number and someone on the current team has that number?  Then that number is sort of associated with the guy who got it retired and the dude who lost his number mid season.

That actually happened when the Bruins retired Esposito's number 7. By that time Bourque was on the team and wearing it but when the ceremony came they actually incorporated it into it. Bourque was the one who presented Esposito with the jersey, pulled his off, and had his now familiar #77 beneath.

 

[riff raff]

This is true if value is only determined by a gold watch.

No, it's true regardless. I mean, I suppose you could say that value is also demonstrated by how they actually treat their employees while they're there but something tells me that's not something Keon feels all that better about.

No. What I am saying is the gold watch alone does not indicate that an employee was valued. Ask anyone who worked for a crap company that underpaid and over worked them and then, on their retirement, they got a gold watch. They didn't skip out of there saying "Oh they valued me!"

Let me be clear - through the years the Leafs treated everyone - players, fans - atrociously. Retiring numbers won't change that.

People are talking about a specific symbolic gesture as the be-all-and-end-all for showing respect and/or value. The Leafs have their own symbolic gesture. Neither one actually means anyone was respected or valued in their time with the team.

 

[rdowdall]

Although, I have always found that funny.  What if it takes a while to get around to retiring a number and someone on the current team has that number?  Then that number is sort of associated with the guy who got it retired and the dude who lost his number mid season.

That actually happened when the Bruins retired Esposito's number 7. By that time Bourque was on the team and wearing it but when the ceremony came they actually incorporated it into it. Bourque was the one who presented Esposito with the jersey, pulled his off, and had his now familiar #77 beneath.

See...I totally knew that happened to Bourque.

 

[Britishbulldog]

I am in between meetings here and can't contribute a lot (actually I can't contribute a lot usually at the best of times ) but I am a bit jaded on who should be recognized and who shouldn't.  I have only been following the Leafs as a fan since '74 so I don't any reference to the glory years gone by.  That awesome history of our beloved team winning championship is when they had to win 8 games against only 2 other teams in a league that only had 5 other teams.

Since expansion I have never seen a Leaf carry the team on his back to a championship no matter who he had as team mates. Are we as Leaf fans so enamored with Sundin's accomplishments that we feel he deserves to be immortalized by never letting another Leaf player ever use the number 13 again?

As for Keon as a Leaf, I can only look at the history books because when I saw his name it was with Hartford Whalers.

Like the joke I find the NHL Hall of Fame to be for who gets in, I haven't seen many Leaf players that would be considered elite compared to the rest of the NHL. 

So maybe I am cynical.  Maybe some feel that Martin St Louis, Brad Richards or Clark Gillies should be in the Hall of Fame after they retire or a bunch of retired Leafs should have their numbers retired because they were so AWESOME.

 

[Kin]

No. What I am saying is the gold watch alone does not indicate that an employee was valued. Ask anyone who worked for a crap company that underpaid and over worked them and then, on their retirement, they got a gold watch. They didn't skip out of there saying "Oh they valued me!"

Well, leaving aside that I think it would in fact be a sign of that I think we're muddied the analogy at this point. Considering that the gold watch here is retiring a number and that a player as shabbily treated as Keon says that it would mend the fences between him and the club I think that's kind of a direct contradiction of your point.

Let me be clear - through the years the Leafs treated everyone - players, fans - atrociously. Retiring numbers won't change that.

Would it change the past? No. Would getting Keon back on good terms with the club go a long ways towards making amends for the lousy things that happened? Again, I have to side with Keon here who seems pretty firm in saying it would.

Quite frankly, the fact that not retiring numbers for the great players who didn't get maimed or killed was a policy of the Ballard era Maple Leafs is in itself enough for me to think they should run as quickly away from it as they can.

People are talking about a specific symbolic gesture as the be-all-and-end-all for showing respect and/or value. The Leafs have their own symbolic gesture. Neither one actually means anyone was respected or valued in their time with the team.

I don't think anyone has said that retiring a number is the be all and end all. Just that it's an almost universal industry standard and that the Leafs' own symbolic gesture is secondary, being as it's also used by many clubs to recognize the players who they don't feel are deserving as the players whose numbers they do retire.

As I said earlier, Keon's demands aren't outlandish. When Ray Lewis retired the Ravens announced they'd be building him a statue outside of their stadium. That is above and beyond. That's something only reserved for the greatest of greats. Retiring numbers is just the standard.

 

[Kin]

That awesome history of our beloved team winning championship is when they had to win 8 games against only 2 other teams in a league that only had 5 other teams.

Doesn't that make it harder, not easier? A compressed league like that meant for better talent per team. The Leafs didn't win their cups like the Kings did last year, against a mediocre Devils team. They went toe to toe with the great Habs and Red Wings dynasties.

Since expansion I have never seen a Leaf carry the team on his back to a championship no matter who he had as team mates.

You say that like the Leafs have had overwhelmingly talented teams that came up short. The great players who have been on the team post-expansion shouldn't be penalized in our esteem because the team as a whole was a mess.

 

[Bullfrog]

I see it as his opinion. An obviously valid one that deserves consideration, but just an opinion nonetheless.

Personally, I was always brought up to believe that when it comes to doing something for someone else it's their opinion that should be paramount. Different strokes, I suppose.

I believe that's a good way of acting in general. But this a very specific situation. I don't think it's exactly comparable to asking if your Grandma would like to go for dinner or would rather eat-in for her birthday celebration. Keon is an individual who excelled in a team sport that has a long history or other individuals who've excelled. You can't bend to the wishes of each of these individuals; it has to apply equally to all. In that case, they have to stick to their current policy for now. Though I don't follow it closely enough, I haven't heard of other former Leaf greats complaining about this issue. They seem to be grateful for the honour presented to them.

While I understand the history with Keon, and I understand the argument of whether the Leafs should change the policy (and I wouldn't really care if they did), the fact is he's been offered their highest honour. To me, that's why it feels as though he's being ungrateful.