Lone Gunman Kills at Least 12 (38 wounded) at Midnight Batman Screening
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hockeyfan1
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BMan said:
Manchurian Candidates aside, wonder if this is still going on today, in some form...
On the Senate floor in 1977, Senator Ted Kennedy said:
The Deputy Director of the CIA revealed that over thirty universities and institutions were involved in an "extensive testing and experimentation" program which included covert drug tests on unwitting citizens "at all social levels, high and low, native Americans and foreign." Several of these tests involved the administration of LSD to "unwitting subjects in social situations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra
And this...
...Dr. Ross describes unethical experiments conducted by psychiatrists to create amnesia, new identities, hypnotic access codes, and new memories in the minds of experimental subjects. His research is based on 15,000 pages of documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.
http://www.wanttoknow.info/bluebird10pg
Nik? said:
If that's where you're going with my post I think you missed the point I was trying to make, that a motivated intelligent insane person bent on murder and mayhem can find a way to achieve their goal. Sure, bring on those tough gun laws I'm all for it ( I didn't say the above bit in bold from your post and your exaggeration for effect is unappreciated ) but I don't think it will make a lick of difference in cases like this. It's a simple, narrow focus without a realistic solution.
Kin
New member
Tigger said:
No, I got it. You said it would strike you as a hollow victory if this guy was able to shoot fewer people because, you know, they were only "wounded" which aside from a terrific euphemism for people who just got hit by a 5.56 mm or .40 calibre bullet just doesn't make sense. This guy wasn't trained in these weapons use. The ratio of people shot/people killed tells you as much. So if he were limited in how many shots he could fire, he wouldn't all of a sudden turn into a marine sharpshooter and kill the same number of people firing wildly into a crowd. If he got off fewer rounds, there'd be less wounded and less dead.
Tigger said:
Which is just absolute nonsense. His goal was to shoot as many people as he could in a crowded theatre. In a case like this, where someone plans on shooting in a crowd, limiting the types of weapons they can use will have a huge difference. I know, I know a hollow difference but for people who might have been shot in the shoulder or kneecap or heck, chest, stomach and head, and are currently "wounded" I think they'd appreciate it all the same.
The fact that, as I said, the guy could have parked a bomb outside of the theatre and tried to blow the place up does not mitigate or change that. These are crazy people. It's not like if you severely limited their access to powerful weaponry they'd be like "Well, to heck with shooting up the theatre, my hunting rifle won't do the trick. I'm going to see about getting my hands on some plutonium."
The hollow victory was less wounded, sure, the point of that was that there would still be many people wounded and dead. I wasn't trying to denigrate or show a lack of empathy towards the wounded people, more that it would still happen anyway, I mean it'd be a victory but not one I'd be celebrating ( and no, it wasn't intended as a euphemism either ).
I don't think the kind of limitation people want is going to happen in the US, so yeah, it's easy to say limiting access to weapons is the answer but there's no legitimate framework for that to take place right now and yes, if he wanted to get these weapons badly enough, even with tighter restrictions, I don't think it would be a real problem for him to do so nor do I think it would take much ingenuity to change his tactics and implementation if that was a challenge.
None of that means tighter gun laws/restrictions shouldn't be attempted.
You've moved from sh*t bomb to plutonium for effect now, good stuff.
I don't think the kind of limitation people want is going to happen in the US, so yeah, it's easy to say limiting access to weapons is the answer but there's no legitimate framework for that to take place right now and yes, if he wanted to get these weapons badly enough, even with tighter restrictions, I don't think it would be a real problem for him to do so nor do I think it would take much ingenuity to change his tactics and implementation if that was a challenge.
None of that means tighter gun laws/restrictions shouldn't be attempted.
You've moved from sh*t bomb to plutonium for effect now, good stuff.
Kin
New member
Tigger said:
So fewer people getting shot is something you wouldn't celebrate but you're not showing a lack of empathy. Right. No, that definitely shows empathy for the people that got shot.
Tigger said:
Well, that depends on what the question is. If the question is "How can we make it so that nobody ever hurts anyone ever again and they instead give them a great big hug" then, yeah, banning assault rifles is a lousy and woefully simplistic answer. If, and I'm just assuming that this is the question that more people are pondering, the question is "how can we limit the damage that maniacs can do with guns" then banning assault rifles is also an easy answer. Only now in the same way that 2 is the easy answer to "What's 1+1?".
You think it'd be possible for him to buy an assault rifle anyway? Try buying an assault rifle in Australia or Japan. This isn't Grand Theft Auto. Most people? Don't know people who sell illegal guns. People trying to buy illegal guns? Often arrested in the process. It doesn't matter if there's the political will to do it. If people are bound and determined to clamp their hands over their ears and shout that they can't hear the answer it doesn't change what the answer is.
But, hey, I'm a reasonable guy. I can listen to other opinions. So tell me. If you don't think it'd be a real problem to buy an assault rifle in a place where they're banned how would this suburban college student get his hands on one? A dead drop in the New Mexico desert with Cartel affiliated gun runners? A present after joining the Crips?
GhostofPotvin29
New member
To that last sentence, I believe we'll find out by the end of Breaking Bad.
#1PilarFan
New member
Somebody hasn't seen Jurassic Park.Bender said:
Jason Alexander's thoughts on Colorado/Gun Control/Etc. Pretty good read actually.
GhostofPotvin29
New member
Damian said:
You still need to have some way/connection to purchase it, you can't just walk into a store and say "1 illegal gun please I have money!" As has been alluded to, I imagine that is fraught with risk.
Kin
New member
Damian said:
That's just not true. If I won the lottery tomorrow I wouldn't have the slightest idea how I'd go about buying depleted Uranium shells or transporting them into Canada. I don't know criminals outside of recreational drug dealers(and even them I don't like being around). I'm not tied into international terrorists. There are Law Enforcement agencies whose mandate it is to stop me from buying things like that no matter how rich I am.
I'm a gun owner and I have disposable income and I don't have the slightest idea where I'd buy a weapon I'm not legally allowed to own in Canada outside of going to a place it is legal and buying it there. But even that right there involves me engaging in the criminal enterprise of somehow getting an illegal weapon across the border which, again, involves me foiling law enforcement. If the gun wasn't legal in America? What would I fly to a lawless region of Afghanistan and try to get in good with a local warlord?
But even beyond that...I mean take something like drugs. Drugs are illegal. Drugs are available. So, on the surface, that would add some weight to the idea that illegal things can be bought. But the one thing that everyone agrees is that the way drugs are policed and restricted greatly increases their price. That's just common sense. So the same would hold true for guns. If the guns that this guy wanted were readily available despite being illegal would he still buy them if they were ten times the price? 20? I know people are saying this guy plotted for months but I haven't seen evidence that he, outside of maybe the way he rigged his apartment, did anything that he couldn't have done in a week. Trust me, I know Grad students. They don't have 5 or 10 thousand dollars to spend on anything. Even if this kid had a huge trust fund the increased cost would add another barrier to crazy people getting their hands on it.
Nik? said:
Can't wait for my invitation to 'Nik's 10 dead 20 wounded sans semi auto fire after party, rsvp, sponsored by Colt 45'... if we're being ridiculous that is.
Nik? said:
Yeah, it's an easy answer to say out loud but you're under some kind of delusion if you think all the states that allow the sale of weapons like that are going to suddenly change their tune.
What does Australia or Japan have to do with it? Examples of countries that have legislation the US will never come close to uniformly? Countries that don't share a border with the US? Ok, sure, it'd be pretty tough there.
If Colorado banned the sale of these guns, which isn't very likely, a person would probably just drive to another state where they're sold. If all the states that allow the sale of these weapons suddenly had a change of heart, well I'd be all smiles, but I wouldn't bet any money on that happening. I also don't put a lot of stock in the opinion that acquiring a weapon like that wouldn't be attempted or considered with tighter legislation just because you don't know how to go about doing it. I mean, from what I can tell you don't seem like the kind of person who is motivated to try and get a weapon like that so forgive me if I don't just take your word for it.
You have an answer, sure and one that I don't disagree with in principle at all, but it's not very realistic in practice in the US. The high capacity mags might be a more realistic target for legislation.
Kin
New member
Tigger said:
If your first post had been about whether or not there was political capital in the United States to change the gun laws there wouldn't have been disagreement. It wasn't. It was about the efficacy of assault weapons. I'm not going to shift topics because you don't have a leg to stand on.
hockeyfan1
New member
Some insight into Holmes' character...
From: http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/20/12858757-mass-murderers-often-not-mentally-ill-but-seeking-revenge-experts-say?lite&__utma
Those who commit mass murders are often angry and isolated, but usually aren't mentally ill, violence experts said Friday...
It takes a certain degree of clear-headedness to plan and execute a crime like this,? said James Alan Fox, a criminal justice professor at Northeastern University in Boston, who has written several books on mass murder and school violence.
There are exceptions ? Jared Loughner, who shot and killed six people in Arizona in 2011, gravely injuring then-member of Congress Gabrielle Giffords, was diagnosed with schizophrenia. Mental health experts say people with mental illness are not any more likely than anyone else to become violent, however.
They are often socially isolated. ?They tend to be a failure at life,? Fox added.
Such well-planned attacks are rare and not meant to make a statement, Fox said. ?They basically want revenge,? he said. ?Contrary to the common misperception that these guys suddenly snap and go berserk, these are well-planned executions.?
Former FBI profiler Clint van Zandt told TODAY that...The attack was carefully planned, both Van Zandt and Fox said, which fits the patterns of such attackers.
Also from: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/20/12854157-aurora-suspect-james-holmes-was-buying-guns-dropping-out-of-graduate-school?lite
Holmes...started buying his four weapons legally in May, about the time his grades fell and he began the process of dropping out of school.
Holmes was "very quiet, strangely quiet in class" and seemed "socially off."
Holmes did very poorly on his comprehensive exams...the school was considering placing him on academic probation, but was not considering expulsion.
I always thought that he was a little strange. I could never put my finger on it, but something told me to not get too close to him, the female student told NBC News.
"He did not have many friends for someone who wanted to be liked," she said. "He loved all the villains in superhero stuff, which I did point out as odd. Most people enjoy the hero!"
From: http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/20/12858757-mass-murderers-often-not-mentally-ill-but-seeking-revenge-experts-say?lite&__utma
Those who commit mass murders are often angry and isolated, but usually aren't mentally ill, violence experts said Friday...
It takes a certain degree of clear-headedness to plan and execute a crime like this,? said James Alan Fox, a criminal justice professor at Northeastern University in Boston, who has written several books on mass murder and school violence.
There are exceptions ? Jared Loughner, who shot and killed six people in Arizona in 2011, gravely injuring then-member of Congress Gabrielle Giffords, was diagnosed with schizophrenia. Mental health experts say people with mental illness are not any more likely than anyone else to become violent, however.
They are often socially isolated. ?They tend to be a failure at life,? Fox added.
Such well-planned attacks are rare and not meant to make a statement, Fox said. ?They basically want revenge,? he said. ?Contrary to the common misperception that these guys suddenly snap and go berserk, these are well-planned executions.?
Former FBI profiler Clint van Zandt told TODAY that...The attack was carefully planned, both Van Zandt and Fox said, which fits the patterns of such attackers.
Also from: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/20/12854157-aurora-suspect-james-holmes-was-buying-guns-dropping-out-of-graduate-school?lite
Holmes...started buying his four weapons legally in May, about the time his grades fell and he began the process of dropping out of school.
Holmes was "very quiet, strangely quiet in class" and seemed "socially off."
Holmes did very poorly on his comprehensive exams...the school was considering placing him on academic probation, but was not considering expulsion.
I always thought that he was a little strange. I could never put my finger on it, but something told me to not get too close to him, the female student told NBC News.
"He did not have many friends for someone who wanted to be liked," she said. "He loved all the villains in superhero stuff, which I did point out as odd. Most people enjoy the hero!"