Marner signs 6 year, $10.893mil AAV contract

[azzurri63]

Colorado's got some contracts that are great for the team -- the exception. Can't compare the Leafs to that.
Tampa Bay's got some contracts that are great for the team -- the exception. Can't compare the Leafs to that.
Boston's got some contracts that are great for the team -- the exception. Can't compare the Leafs to that.
Etc.

I don't think anyone is saying you can't compare the Leafs and their contracts to other teams and theirs. We're just saying you have to compare them fairly and taking proper context into account along with the realities of negotiating under the current system. Like compare Pastrnak to Marner all you want, just do it acknowledging that when Pastrnak signed his deal it was with a resume of a 70 point season and 123 points in 172 games and when Marner signed his it was with a resume of a 94 point season and 234 points in 241 games.

Nobody is afraid of comparisons. We just reject crying like a petulant toddler because you don't have as shiny a toy as you want as a "comparison".

I think the part that is the most frustrating Nik is the production or in Marner's case a lack of in the playoffs. We can complain about the money handed out yada yada yada but bottom line if you want that money you have to do it in the playoffs. Regular season numbers are great but when there is a massive drop-off come playoffs then you have to seriously look at why. Pastrnak albeit plays on probably the top line in hockey aside maybe from the Mackinnon line but since he signed his latest deal his numbers are very good in the playoffs. That's all you can ask. But when you're a complete non-factor playing 20-25 minutes a game post season after post season then the players passion, grit, heart, toughness etc have to be seriously looked at. I love Mitch as a Leaf but in my honest opinion he's not cut out for playoff hockey. Like I said before points are harder to come by in the playoffs but to me he's not the same Mitch. To me it looks like he's playing scared or to not make a mistake and in the end he's making more. Can he shrug that? No-one knows but again how long do you wait to find out.

 

[azzurri63]

Sick and tired of repeating the same bulls*8t every year after listening to some of these supposed stars. Time has come to deliver and they haven't done it. Will they eventually who knows. Question is how long to you wait until they deliver if they even will. Mitch in an interview today. ?Seems like it?s always kind of the same words at the end of the year, and it?s unfortunate, and it sucks.? Well maybe it's time to earn your salary.

?It?s up to [Dubas and president Brendan Shanahan] to decide what they want to do. But we all know how much talent we have, how much grit and will we play with, and we all want to win.

You have no idea what grit is Mitch.

Soaked the team for top dollars and not playing like it.

I say Dubas if he's even around needs to ship this guy out. Can't keep waiting year after year to see if they eventually wake up because my opinion that's not going to happen. Some of these guys don't have it in them and I don't think ever will and to be honest Mitch isn't the only one. Like Luke Fox said in the article William Nylander (five goals) was Toronto?s most dangerous weapon in the series. John Tavares holds a no-move clause and Auston Matthews isn?t going anywhere. So Mitch is the guy. Change the complexion of this team free up some cash so you can sign some decent players not cast-offs from other teams of players who are done. Something just something needs to change other wise we are going to be here 12 months from now complaining about the same sh*t.

Marner isn't going anywhere and the core 4 is staying together for at least another year.

I wouldn't bet against it.

 

[Kin]

I think the part that is the most frustrating Nik is the production or in Marner's case a lack of in the playoffs.

I think the thing that's most frustrating for me is what you just spewed has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said which was about the reality Dubas was dealing with when negotiating those contracts and instead decided to yammer on the same lazy analysis you repeat over and over and over and over and over and over. Nobody has said Marner had a good playoffs.

 

[Kin]

If anything, the argument that what a team really needs to compete is players playing well above their contracts is a much much better argument for concentrating on drafting and developing depth players because the only guys around the leagues with contracts like that are players drafted and developed and then signed to long term deals before they take steps forward in their game. Again, the UFA market is notoriously a bad place to get good value for cap $.

And the thing about doing that is that, believe it or not, you actually can do that regardless of your cap situation. If you have a really talented young player on a rookie deal you can sign them to an extension and then look to trade one of your bigger contracts you're not entirely thrilled with from a position of strength rather then trading from a position of weakness and just sort of hoping you can find someone to make up the deficit.

 

[azzurri63]

I think the part that is the most frustrating Nik is the production or in Marner's case a lack of in the playoffs.

I think the thing that's most frustrating for me is what you just spewed has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said which was about the reality Dubas was dealing with when negotiating those contracts and instead decided to yammer on the same lazy analysis you repeat over and over and over and over and over and over. Nobody has said Marner had a good playoffs.

I don't know what I'm repeating over and over again. All I'm saying regardless if we think he's overpaid or not the contract looks 100 times worse because his game is night and day come playoff time compared to the regular season. All players can struggle during the playoffs it's a completely different game but you can cut them some slack but when it's every year then you got to look deeper.

 

[L K]

I think the part that is the most frustrating Nik is the production or in Marner's case a lack of in the playoffs.

I think the thing that's most frustrating for me is what you just spewed has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said which was about the reality Dubas was dealing with when negotiating those contracts and instead decided to yammer on the same lazy analysis you repeat over and over and over and over and over and over. Nobody has said Marner had a good playoffs.

I don't know what I'm repeating over and over again. All I'm saying regardless if we think he's overpaid or not the contract looks 100 times worse because his game is night and day come playoff time compared to the regular season. All players can struggle during the playoffs it's a completely different game but you can cut them some slack but when it's every year then you got to look deeper.

He has 25 points in 32 career playoff games.  He isn't absolutely not producing.  He's not producing well enough but it's being made out like the guy is going 0 fer.

 

[Kin]

All I'm saying regardless if we think he's overpaid or not the contract looks 100 times worse because his game is night and day come playoff time compared to the regular season.

Again, I understand how you think Marner's contract looks. I don't care. I was not talking about how Marner's contract "looks" or even if it's a good deal or not. The only thing I said in the post you're responding to was about the practical realities of negotiating contracts with young players based on their production to date.

All players can struggle during the playoffs it's a completely different game but you can cut them some slack but when it's every year then you got to look deeper.

Then it's a good thing that it's not every year and all of the dime-store psychoanalysis is as worthless as I assumed.

 

[mr grieves]

If anything, the argument that what a team really needs to compete is players playing well above their contracts is a much much better argument for concentrating on drafting and developing depth players because the only guys around the leagues with contracts like that are players drafted and developed and then signed to long term deals before they take steps forward in their game. Again, the UFA market is notoriously a bad place to get good value for cap $.

And the thing about doing that is that, believe it or not, you actually can do that regardless of your cap situation. If you have a really talented young player on a rookie deal you can sign them to an extension and then look to trade one of your bigger contracts you're not entirely thrilled with from a position of strength rather then trading from a position of weakness and just sort of hoping you can find someone to make up the deficit.

Yeah, Nik. We all understand these basic principles of team building and asset management. Thanks.

 

[Kin]

Yeah, Nik. We all understand these basic principles of team building and asset management. Thanks.

 

[mr grieves]

Cute.

In the specific case of the Leafs, talented young players on rookie deals were signed to extensions, and the big contracts pushing up against the cap ceiling forced Dubas into dealing them earlier than one would want to. Where the line between ?not entirely thrilled with? and ?gotta get this off the books!? is has a lot to do with the rest of the salary structure, and that's the point relevant to make on this here thread about Marner's contract and its consequences.

Once the flat cap pushed those extensions across that line, the Leafs were forced into trades, regardless of where internal replacements were in their development. Can Nick Robertson replace Kasperi Kapanen? Next year, maybe, I hope! Does leave the Leafs in tough till then, of course, so... where do you go now? The UFA market. And, while lots of bad decisions can be made there, Dubas didn?t even have the cash to make any good ones that would move the needle.

 

[Kin]

Next year, maybe, I hope! Does leave the Leafs in tough till then, of course, so... where do you go now? The UFA market.

Or just once, and hear me out, you show some patience and don't throw a tantrum because you don't have everything you want now now now now NOW!

 

[mr grieves]

Next year, maybe, I hope! Does leave the Leafs in tough till then, of course, so... where do you go now? The UFA market.

Or just once, and hear me out, you show some patience and don't throw a tantrum because you don't have everything you want now now now now NOW!

Again. I would imagine you can quote me doing that.

Saying "the Leafs ought to be able to afford someone more useful than Ilya Mikheyev on their third line" plainly is not "throw[ing] a tantrum." But claiming it is, and routinely pretending people are saying things they aren't in order to claim victory on the internet board debate club, sure is some childish--well, adolescent, to be fair--behavior.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Next year, maybe, I hope! Does leave the Leafs in tough till then, of course, so... where do you go now? The UFA market.

Or just once, and hear me out, you show some patience and don't throw a tantrum because you don't have everything you want now now now now NOW!

Again. I would imagine you can quote me doing that.

Saying "the Leafs ought to be able to afford someone more useful than Ilya Mikheyev on their third line" plainly is not "throw[ing] a tantrum." But claiming it is, and routinely pretending people are saying things they aren't in order to claim victory on the internet board debate club, sure is some childish--well, adolescent, to be fair--behavior.

Hey now...Mikheyev is a very useful player. Probably our best defensive forward.

 

[Kin]

But claiming it is, and routinely pretending people are saying things they aren't in order to claim victory on the internet board debate club, sure is some childish--well, adolescent, to be fair--behavior.

Sorry, I'll come up with a really good animated gif as soon as I finish choking down the irony. 

 

[azzurri63]

All I'm saying regardless if we think he's overpaid or not the contract looks 100 times worse because his game is night and day come playoff time compared to the regular season.

Again, I understand how you think Marner's contract looks. I don't care. I was not talking about how Marner's contract "looks" or even if it's a good deal or not. The only thing I said in the post you're responding to was about the practical realities of negotiating contracts with young players based on their production to date.

All players can struggle during the playoffs it's a completely different game but you can cut them some slack but when it's every year then you got to look deeper.

Then it's a good thing that it's not every year and all of the dime-store psychoanalysis is as worthless as I assumed.

So I'll give you and LK year 2 playoffs as a good year 9 points in 7 games but in the last 3 years 19 games, 2 goals and 12 points. You would think as he's gotten older the numbers would improve with playoff experience etc. I wouldn't say the numbers are atrocious but definitely not living up to expectations.

 

[azzurri63]

Next year, maybe, I hope! Does leave the Leafs in tough till then, of course, so... where do you go now? The UFA market.

Or just once, and hear me out, you show some patience and don't throw a tantrum because you don't have everything you want now now now now NOW!

Again. I would imagine you can quote me doing that.

Saying "the Leafs ought to be able to afford someone more useful than Ilya Mikheyev on their third line" plainly is not "throw[ing] a tantrum." But claiming it is, and routinely pretending people are saying things they aren't in order to claim victory on the internet board debate club, sure is some childish--well, adolescent, to be fair--behavior.

It's a losing battle Grieves. Reason I disappeared for a while.

 

[Kin]

So I'll give you and LK year 2 playoffs as a good year 9 points in 7 games but in the last 3 years 19 games, 2 goals and 12 points. You would think as he's gotten older the numbers would improve with playoff experience etc. I wouldn't say the numbers are atrocious but definitely not living up to expectations.

Leaving aside the fact that when the numbers don't support your point you're the first person to pout and say "numbers aren't everything" there is no definition by which scoring 4 points in 5 games, which Marner did last year is bad production. Personally, I'd rank Marner as having been "good" or better in 3 of his 5 playoff appearances and, no, it isn't reasonable to just assume that someone's playoff production would be a straight line upwards.

But, again, nobody is arguing that Marner has been everything we could possibly want at all times.

 

[Kin]

As per the above point, look at either Ovechkin or Crosby's playoff careers. While on balance their career playoff numbers are pretty good, although below their regular season ppg pace, whether or not they have a "good" production year in the playoffs could not look more random on a year to year basis.

 

[azzurri63]

Good article on Mitch. https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2021...arner-weighing-the-arguments-for-and-against/

 

[herman]

Good article on Mitch. https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2021...arner-weighing-the-arguments-for-and-against/

this link works
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2021/06/03/should-the-maple-leafs-trade-mitch-marner-weighing-the-arguments-for-and-against/

PPP's
https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2021/6/4/22463754/how-to-trade-mitch-marner-toronto-maple-leafs-armchair-gm-draft-its-not-personal

Some additional level-headed grist:
https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2021/6/1/22462518/is-this-the-end-for-mitch-marner-toronto-maple-leafs-total-playoff-failure
https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2021/6/4/22466498/five-things-i-believe-about-mitch-marner-and-one-i-dont-toronto-maple-leafs-scapegoat-du-jour

The really funny thing: Mitch Marner is used as a shutdown 1RD playing 1st pair minutes at a forward position.