Mason Raymond invited to training camp UPDATE: Signed on 09/22

[Champ Kind]

the problem with Kulemin is $2.8 mil is a lot for a 3rd line guy who chips in a bit of offense and is around mostly for defensive and PK duties. yeah he's great at those things and a big part of the team but the value isn't there at $2.8. 

I think he stays this year but next year he won't be around.  Don't see other teams willing to pay him anything close to that either.  My bet is he's KHL bound next year.

I think we need to get a new perspective on what $2.8M in cap really means in today's NHL. It's less than what Joel Ward is getting to play a similar role with similar production. It's less than what Florida gave Kopecky when he came off a season similar to what Kulemin has produced most of his NHL career. It's less than what Edmonton gave Boyd Gordon this summer to provide less offence in a defensive role. It's similar money to Frans Nielsen, Cal Clutterbuck, Kyle Brodziak and Sean Bergenheim. The value is absolutely there based on what similar players around the league are getting right now, and he will almost certainly get a similar contract next summer from an NHL team.

I'd go a bit further.  I think Kulemin, if he repeats his 12-15 goals, 40 points pace, will get a pretty decent raise over the $2.8 he's currently making.  His workrate, forechecking, and big body will be valuable commodities.  There's also the likelihood that some GM will look at his 30 goal season and make oan offer based on the potential he can repeat.  I think that Kulemin locked in a, say, $3.5 over 4 years is somthign I would do in a heartbeat.

 

[bustaheims]

I think that Kulemin locked in a, say, $3.5 over 4 years is somthign I would do in a heartbeat.

Depending on what happens with the cap for next season - and, supposedly, it's going to jump fairly significantly - I would, too. That's just the going rate for quality, well rounded 3rd liners these days.

 

[Jalili]

One of the positive things I read about Clarkson from NJ fans was that his production never took a hit going from a scoring line with guys like Elias to the 3rd line.

I wouldn't be against either combo but I really liked the makeup of the Lupul-Kadri-Kulemin line.

Busta already covered the problems with talking about Clarkson's scoring consistency, but that isn't even the issue here. New Jersey probably didn't use their 3rd line like Carlyle uses his, and that's in a highly defensive manner. Clarkson just wouldn't get any offensive opportunities there.

That doesn't really prove it one way or another though, just says that he's inconsistent.

 

[Jalili]

If the Leafs let go of Kulemin they'll be making another NHL team very happy. He's a guy I'd be disappointed to see leave, put it that way.

But just for the hell of it... rumour always had it that Pittsburgh wanted him. If the Leafs are out of the race at the trade deadline, I wouldn't be against trading him for one of their solid D prospects, which I know they have a lot of.

 

[Corn Flake]

the problem with Kulemin is $2.8 mil is a lot for a 3rd line guy who chips in a bit of offense and is around mostly for defensive and PK duties. yeah he's great at those things and a big part of the team but the value isn't there at $2.8. 

I think he stays this year but next year he won't be around.  Don't see other teams willing to pay him anything close to that either.  My bet is he's KHL bound next year.

I think we need to get a new perspective on what $2.8M in cap really means in today's NHL. It's less than what Joel Ward is getting to play a similar role with similar production. It's less than what Florida gave Kopecky when he came off a season similar to what Kulemin has produced most of his NHL career. It's less than what Edmonton gave Boyd Gordon this summer to provide less offence in a defensive role. It's similar money to Frans Nielsen, Cal Clutterbuck, Kyle Brodziak and Sean Bergenheim. The value is absolutely there based on what similar players around the league are getting right now, and he will almost certainly get a similar contract next summer from an NHL team.

I'd go a bit further.  I think Kulemin, if he repeats his 12-15 goals, 40 points pace, will get a pretty decent raise over the $2.8 he's currently making.  His workrate, forechecking, and big body will be valuable commodities.  There's also the likelihood that some GM will look at his 30 goal season and make oan offer based on the potential he can repeat.  I think that Kulemin locked in a, say, $3.5 over 4 years is somthign I would do in a heartbeat.

That's being pretty generous if you ask me.  The trouble I have is with some good young players up and coming you need to make room somewhere. is spending $3.5 on a 3rd line winger the right decision? I'm not so sure.

If I can get a Jay McClement for $1.5 I would go get another guy like him and take my chances with lacking offense on the 3rd line.  I've got a stack of young forwards in the AHL I can cross my fingers can step in and provide some scoring as well.

I wouldn't use Boyd Gordon as a comparable. That was a typical Oilers overpay to lure a UFA to the great white yuck.

 

[Champ Kind]

That's being pretty generous if you ask me.  The trouble I have is with some good young players up and coming you need to make room somewhere. is spending $3.5 on a 3rd line winger the right decision? I'm not so sure.

If I can get a Jay McClement for $1.5 I would go get another guy like him and take my chances with lacking offense on the 3rd line.  I've got a stack of young forwards in the AHL I can cross my fingers can step in and provide some scoring as well.

I wouldn't use Boyd Gordon as a comparable. That was a typical Oilers overpay to lure a UFA to the great white yuck.

Maybe, but I think Kulemin has an ability to move up the lineup that some of those other players you reference don't have.  Kulemin's flexibility has value, as he doesn't look out of place when playing with guys like Kadri.  In fact, his game responded significantly when paired with Kadri last year, before Lupul returned.  Kulemin is a workhorse who's talented enough to move up the lineup.  Kind of like Dan Cleary, who at 34 years old signed for close to $3M per season.

 

[mr grieves]

the problem with Kulemin is $2.8 mil is a lot for a 3rd line guy who chips in a bit of offense and is around mostly for defensive and PK duties. yeah he's great at those things and a big part of the team but the value isn't there at $2.8. 

I think he stays this year but next year he won't be around.  Don't see other teams willing to pay him anything close to that either.  My bet is he's KHL bound next year.

I think we need to get a new perspective on what $2.8M in cap really means in today's NHL. It's less than what Joel Ward is getting to play a similar role with similar production. It's less than what Florida gave Kopecky when he came off a season similar to what Kulemin has produced most of his NHL career. It's less than what Edmonton gave Boyd Gordon this summer to provide less offence in a defensive role. It's similar money to Frans Nielsen, Cal Clutterbuck, Kyle Brodziak and Sean Bergenheim. The value is absolutely there based on what similar players around the league are getting right now, and he will almost certainly get a similar contract next summer from an NHL team.

I'd go a bit further.  I think Kulemin, if he repeats his 12-15 goals, 40 points pace, will get a pretty decent raise over the $2.8 he's currently making.  His workrate, forechecking, and big body will be valuable commodities.  There's also the likelihood that some GM will look at his 30 goal season and make oan offer based on the potential he can repeat.  I think that Kulemin locked in a, say, $3.5 over 4 years is somthign I would do in a heartbeat.

I'd also say it should count for something that Kule isn't just a third line winger but a fringe top 6 forward. He can move up to the second line in the event of an injury and do pretty well -- he didn't look out of place with Kadri last season.

Edit: Or, uh, yeah. What Bernier said.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

2012-2013 Stats:

	GP	Goals	Assists	Points	PP Points	EV/TOI	PP/TOI	SH/TOI	Hits	13/14 Cap-hit
Kulemin	48	7	16	23	0	14:07	0:25	2:11	122	$2.8mil
Clarkson	48	15	9	24	8	14:01	3:33	0:01	84	$5.25mil
Bolland	35	7	7	14	3	12:58	2:28	0:52	43	$3.375mil

Knowing that someone out there thinks Kulemin is overpaid makes me sad.

 

[Frank E]

2012-2013 Stats:

	GP	Goals	Assists	Points	PP Points	EV/TOI	PP/TOI	SH/TOI	Hits	13/14 Cap-hit
Kulemin	48	7	16	23	0	14:07	0:25	2:11	122	$2.8mil
Clarkson	48	15	9	24	8	14:01	3:33	0:01	84	$5.25mil
Bolland	35	7	7	14	3	12:58	2:28	0:52	43	$3.375mil

Knowing that someone out there thinks Kulemin is overpaid makes me sad.

Ya, but Mason Raymond had some decent stats too.

I love Kulemin, and his great play, to me, sometimes can't be substantiated by stats.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I love Kulemin, and his great play, to me, sometimes can't be substantiated by stats.

Well, that was sort of an unwritten part to my post. Kulemin put up the same offensive stats last season as Clarkson did with a fraction of the powerplay time Clarkson had. And he did that while being the teams best defensive forward and a big part of the 2nd-ranked penalty killing team in the league.

Yet Clarkson gets $5.25mil for 7 years and we're debating whether or not Kulemin at $2.8-3.5mil is fair? Are "intangibles" really worth that gap?

 

[Kin]

That's being pretty generous if you ask me.  The trouble I have is with some good young players up and coming you need to make room somewhere. is spending $3.5 on a 3rd line winger the right decision? I'm not so sure.

I think this is more the bit people should be focusing on and less about Kulemin's overall value and salary. I've listed the number of young forwards on the Marlies before but realistically after this year the Leafs are going to have 6 guys locked into multi-year contracts in Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Lupul, Bozak and Clarkson. The third line is really where the team should be looking to integrate some newer guys who can maybe do the same or a similar job at a lower price. So it's not so much whether or not Kulemin is worth 2.8 million dollars, it's whether Brad Ross or someone can be just as valuable for a fraction of that. If that means Kulemin can be dealt for additional assets that's something you really have to look at considering how locked the Leafs are elsewhere.

 

[Kin]

Kulemin put up the same offensive stats last season as Clarkson did with a fraction of the powerplay time Clarkson had.

Well, except that assumes that goals and assists have equal value. Typically premiums are put on goalscoring and that's why Clarkson got paid the way he did.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

That's being pretty generous if you ask me.  The trouble I have is with some good young players up and coming you need to make room somewhere. is spending $3.5 on a 3rd line winger the right decision? I'm not so sure.

I think this is more the bit people should be focusing on and less about Kulemin's overall value and salary. I've listed the number of young forwards on the Marlies before but realistically after this year the Leafs are going to have 6 guys locked into multi-year contracts in Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Lupul, Bozak and Clarkson. The third line is really where the team should be looking to integrate some newer guys who can maybe do the same or a similar job at a lower price. So it's not so much whether or not Kulemin is worth 2.8 million dollars, it's whether Brad Ross or someone can be just as valuable for a fraction of that. If that means Kulemin can be dealt for additional assets that's something you really have to look at considering how locked the Leafs are elsewhere.

If we're framing the discussion like this then yes, I actually agree. We could have $30+mil invested in our top-6 forwards as early as 2014-15 if Kessel re-signs. If your cap is going to be that top-heavy there has to be some casualties elsewhere on the team. And having a 3rd line making $7-8mil with Bolland, Kulemin, and somebody else probably isn't going to fit. So if both Bolland and Kulemin are on the team next season. I'd keep Kulemin but I don't think that's where the team is going.

 

[Corn Flake]

That's being pretty generous if you ask me.  The trouble I have is with some good young players up and coming you need to make room somewhere. is spending $3.5 on a 3rd line winger the right decision? I'm not so sure.

I think this is more the bit people should be focusing on and less about Kulemin's overall value and salary. I've listed the number of young forwards on the Marlies before but realistically after this year the Leafs are going to have 6 guys locked into multi-year contracts in Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Lupul, Bozak and Clarkson. The third line is really where the team should be looking to integrate some newer guys who can maybe do the same or a similar job at a lower price. So it's not so much whether or not Kulemin is worth 2.8 million dollars, it's whether Brad Ross or someone can be just as valuable for a fraction of that. If that means Kulemin can be dealt for additional assets that's something you really have to look at considering how locked the Leafs are elsewhere.

If we're framing the discussion like this then yes, I actually agree. We could have $30+mil invested in our top-6 forwards as early as 2014-15 if Kessel re-signs. If your cap is going to be that top-heavy there has to be some casualties elsewhere on the team. And having a 3rd line making $7-8mil with Bolland, Kulemin, and somebody else probably isn't going to fit. So if both Bolland and Kulemin are on the team next season. I'd keep Kulemin but I don't think that's where the team is going.

If the grand plan of developing players is truly working then we should be seeing players ready by next year at the latest who can fill 3rd line'ish roles.  The only other way they open up is through injuries. When injuries come up, we will likely see some auditions this year for full time jobs on that line next year. 

While I like Kulemin a lot too, I don't think he's as tough to replace as maybe some think he is.  Size, speed and defensive acumen with some here and there offense are valuable, but not the most impossible attributes to replace.  And the Leafs have a number of prospects including as Nik mentioned.. Brad Ross... who carry those tools and could step in. 

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Kulemin put up the same offensive stats last season as Clarkson did with a fraction of the powerplay time Clarkson had.

Well, except that assumes that goals and assists have equal value. Typically premiums are put on goalscoring and that's why Clarkson got paid the way he did.

Well, that Art Ross trophy assumes their the same, but yeah I see your point. I'm still not sure that justifies that big of a gap when you consider the other aspects of Kulemin's game that are superior to Clarkson's. But I suppose at this point there isn't really anything to say about the Clarkson contract that hasn't already been said, so I'll just wait to see him play at least a game before I complain about it again.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

If the grand plan of developing players is truly working then we should be seeing players ready by next year at the latest who can fill 3rd line'ish roles.  The only other way they open up is through injuries. When injuries come up, we will likely see some auditions this year for full time jobs on that line next year. 

While I like Kulemin a lot too, I don't think he's as tough to replace as maybe some think he is.  Size, speed and defensive acumen with some here and there offense are valuable, but not the most impossible attributes to replace.  And the Leafs have a number of prospects including as Nik mentioned.. Brad Ross... who carry those tools and could step in. 

Again, that's fair. Saying that Kulemin isn't worth the money stuck behind 4 wingers with biggest contracts isn't the same as saying Kulemin isn't worth $3mil in terms of league-wide value. I've said before I fully expect to lose some of our depth next offseason because regardless of how high the cap goes things will be tight. We'll likely lose at least two of Franson/Liles/Bolland/Kulemin. They'll be replaced by inferior players but in terms of bang for your buck it won't be so bad.

I think my bigger problem is that I think the team would have been way better off giving Kulemin a spot in the top-6 where his salary would actually look very fair instead of giving out a huge contract to a player I swore 5 minutes ago I wouldn't complain about for awhile.

 

[bustaheims]

While I agree that getting prospects up on to the big club in a 3rd line role is much more effective from a price performance POV, the truth is, I'm not convinced there really are guys that are knocking on the door to take over that role in the next couple seasons. Some like Ross, for instance, only has half an AHL season under his belt so far. I'm not convinced he'll be ready a year from now. Then there are guys like D'Amigo and Ryan, who, if I'm being honest about there, can't fill the same role, as, so far, they look more like they'll be 4th liners than might be able to fill in on the 3rd rather than 3rd liners than can fill a top 6 role if need be or be a viable depth scoring option. The rest of the prospects that will be Marlies this season will be 1st year pros (or, at the very least, playing their first full season in the AHL), and, while it may turn out that some of them could make the jump a year from now, I certainly don't expect it. Most of these guys won't be ready for full time NHL duty for 2 seasons or so. I'm honestly not convinced there's anyone in the organization who can be as valuable as Kulemin in that role for at least 2 more seasons, if not longer - and, even if some might be ready by then, I'd still sign Kulemin to a reasonable length multi-year deal at around $3.5M, because, at that rate, given his abilities, he'd still be very moveable at that point and should net the team a nice return if they were to go that route.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

?Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons.?

 

[nutman]

While I agree that getting prospects up on to the big club in a 3rd line role is much more effective from a price performance POV, the truth is, I'm not convinced there really are guys that are knocking on the door to take over that role in the next couple seasons. Some like Ross, for instance, only has half an AHL season under his belt so far. I'm not convinced he'll be ready a year from now. Then there are guys like D'Amigo and Ryan, who, if I'm being honest about there, can't fill the same role, as, so far, they look more like they'll be 4th liners than might be able to fill in on the 3rd rather than 3rd liners than can fill a top 6 role if need be or be a viable depth scoring option. The rest of the prospects that will be Marlies this season will be 1st year pros (or, at the very least, playing their first full season in the AHL), and, while it may turn out that some of them could make the jump a year from now, I certainly don't expect it. Most of these guys won't be ready for full time NHL duty for 2 seasons or so. I'm honestly not convinced there's anyone in the organization who can be as valuable as Kulemin in that role for at least 2 more seasons, if not longer - and, even if some might be ready by then, I'd still sign Kulemin to a reasonable length multi-year deal at around $3.5M, because, at that rate, given his abilities, he'd still be very moveable at that point and should net the team a nice return if they were to go that route.

Kulemin is a keeper, and I agree with you that the farm is a long way off from giving us someone even close to him.

 

[Leafaholic99]

While I agree that getting prospects up on to the big club in a 3rd line role is much more effective from a price performance POV, the truth is, I'm not convinced there really are guys that are knocking on the door to take over that role in the next couple seasons. Some like Ross, for instance, only has half an AHL season under his belt so far. I'm not convinced he'll be ready a year from now. Then there are guys like D'Amigo and Ryan, who, if I'm being honest about there, can't fill the same role, as, so far, they look more like they'll be 4th liners than might be able to fill in on the 3rd rather than 3rd liners than can fill a top 6 role if need be or be a viable depth scoring option. The rest of the prospects that will be Marlies this season will be 1st year pros (or, at the very least, playing their first full season in the AHL), and, while it may turn out that some of them could make the jump a year from now, I certainly don't expect it. Most of these guys won't be ready for full time NHL duty for 2 seasons or so. I'm honestly not convinced there's anyone in the organization who can be as valuable as Kulemin in that role for at least 2 more seasons, if not longer - and, even if some might be ready by then, I'd still sign Kulemin to a reasonable length multi-year deal at around $3.5M, because, at that rate, given his abilities, he'd still be very moveable at that point and should net the team a nice return if they were to go that route.

Kulemin is a keeper, and I agree with you that the farm is a long way off from giving us someone even close to him.

I agree, right now being so close to the cap people look at players that make quite a bit, but don't contribute offensively that much and feel they are expendable. Kulemin at his current price is good, he plays a good defensive game and is physical and tough, we would miss him a lot if he was traded. When the cap starts going up, 2.8 million for him won't be that bad at all.