Moving Grabbo and Kuli

[Kin]

And add to that the Grabovski line being pretty snake-bitten to score themselves.  Think he was only on the ice for 2 goals for or something, so it doesn't take much to get an ugly minus number in those situations.

Well, that kind of comes back to the whole "third line" argument which I think is a little bogus but defensively anyway he certainly got a tough assignment.

 

[mr grieves]

And add to that the Grabovski line being pretty snake-bitten to score themselves.  Think he was only on the ice for 2 goals for or something, so it doesn't take much to get an ugly minus number in those situations.

Well, that kind of comes back to the whole "third line" argument which I think is a little bogus but defensively anyway he certainly got a tough assignment.

I'm assuming you mean the playoff there.

 

[Kin]

I'm assuming you mean the playoff there.

Yes. In the playoffs he definitely got a tough matchup.

 

[mr grieves]

I'm assuming you mean the playoff there.

Yes. In the playoffs he definitely got a tough matchup.

Yes, and wasn't on the third line.

 

[Kin]

Yes, and wasn't on the third line.

Well, that's a pretty tricky argument to make.

 

[Bonsixx]

Wasn't Grabbo like -10 or something against the Bruins. Not saying that's the be-all, end-all, but still...

It's pretty meaningless, unless you can attach blame to Grabovski for a good chunk of the goals that went in while he was on the ice. He's only one player. He can be doing everything right for every second of shift when called upon to play on the defensive side of the puck, and goals will still go in.

It's also worth mentioning that the line that Grabo's line got matched up against, the Krejci line, did sort of end up doing that to everyone in the playoffs.

And add to that the Grabovski line being pretty snake-bitten to score themselves.  Think he was only on the ice for 2 goals for or something, so it doesn't take much to get an ugly minus number in those situations.

But there you go. That's why people tend to think he had a poor playoffs. Didn't score, was on the ice for a lot of goals against. No matter how fearless he played, and he certainly did, I think there's a valid argument that he still didn't play all that well.

 

[mr grieves]

Yes, and wasn't on the third line.

Well, that's a pretty tricky argument to make.

He was, at least, playing with a top-6 winger (JVR) much of the time, wasn't he? I couldn't really keep track of the forward lines during that series.

Was just coming to this: he wasn't so positioned during the regular season where his most frequent linemates were Kulemin, McClement, and Komarov. Whether you think the defensive zone starts significant or not, those aren't really the team's top 6 wingers.

 

[Kin]

Was just coming to this: he wasn't so positioned during the regular season where his most frequent linemates were Kulemin, McClement, and Komarov. Whether you think the defensive zone starts significant or not, those aren't really the team's top 6 wingers.

Eh, I mean, we've been over this before but to me those arguments always read like a glue factory owner coming to the conclusion that slow horses must make the best glue because that's all that the stables want to sell him.

 

[mr grieves]

Was just coming to this: he wasn't so positioned during the regular season where his most frequent linemates were Kulemin, McClement, and Komarov. Whether you think the defensive zone starts significant or not, those aren't really the team's top 6 wingers.

Eh, I mean, we've been over this before but to me those arguments always read like a glue factory owner coming to the conclusion that slow horses must make the best glue because that's all that the stables want to sell him.

I think that's a better analogy for those who think Bozak's a #1C.

Not sure what argument you thinking I'm making here. I'm just saying you're not going to get Grabovski assisting on many goals if he's feeding those three -- he's not a good enough playmaker. So no one should've been that surprised to see his scoring decline.

 

[Kin]

Not sure what argument you thinking I'm making here. I'm just saying you're not going to get Grabovski assisting on many goals if he's feeding those three -- he's not a good enough playmaker. So no one should've been that surprised to see his scoring decline.

I suppose the argument I think you're making is that Grabo's decline is attributable to playing with those wingers whereas I think Grabo's decline is why he was playing with those wingers.

 

[mr grieves]

Not sure what argument you thinking I'm making here. I'm just saying you're not going to get Grabovski assisting on many goals if he's feeding those three -- he's not a good enough playmaker. So no one should've been that surprised to see his scoring decline.

I suppose the argument I think you're making is that Grabo's decline is attributable to playing with those wingers whereas I think Grabo's decline is why he was playing with those wingers.

Well, he had 5 points in the first 5 games, followed by a 5 game pointless streak, after which his ice time fell into the 15 minute range and stayed about that for the rest of the season.

To me, that looks like a slump followed by other guys moving up and producing, Grabbo's being re-assigned to a checking role, and thus there being no need to move him around to get him going.

And I know you've already dismissed the fancy stats, but for the benefit of those who haven't come to a conclusion: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/mikhail-grabovski-the-leafs-55-million-checking-centre/article8748765/

 

[Kin]

Well, he had 5 points in the first 5 games, followed by a 5 game pointless streak, after which his ice time fell into the 15 minute range and stayed about that for the rest of the season.

Well, if you look at those first five games I think it's pretty clear that the JVR-Grabo-Kulemin line was working pretty well. Then Lupul gets hurt and they had to shuffle things around. He did get time with Kulemin and Mac, which was the line he had his biggest success with and was unable to recreate it. I'm pretty confident that if that line had been working they'd have been happy to keep it together. Grabo just wasn't getting it done in the early goings and they had to find a way to use him.

 

[mr grieves]

Well, he had 5 points in the first 5 games, followed by a 5 game pointless streak, after which his ice time fell into the 15 minute range and stayed about that for the rest of the season.

Well, if you look at those first five games I think it's pretty clear that the JVR-Grabo-Kulemin line was working pretty well. Then Lupul gets hurt and they had to shuffle things around. He did get time with Kulemin and Mac, which was the line he had his biggest success with and was unable to recreate it. I'm pretty confident that if that line had been working they'd have been happy to keep it together. Grabo just wasn't getting it done in the early goings and they had to find a way to use him.

Sure, and once it was decided to use him as a defensive center, Carlyle stuck with that for the rest of the season. He might've got it done if moved back up for any length of time or had a bit more PP time. He might not've. All one can really say is that, once the 2nd unit from years past was reassembled and didn't click, Grabbo didn't get many more opportunities in a scoring role during 2012-13.

 

[Kin]

He might've got it done if moved back up for any length of time or had a bit more PP time.

I guess. But he did get time on the 2nd unit PP all season. Not a ton, no, but even among guys on the 2nd unit PP he was unproductive.

 

[Seymore Pucks]

If the Leafs can land a bonifide C for the 1st line and retain Bozak, I would would like Bozak to have the role of shutting down the oppositions best line.  Surely Grabs has more of a offensive upside than Bozak?  But then where do you put Kadri.

 

[mr grieves]

He might've got it done if moved back up for any length of time or had a bit more PP time.

I guess. But he did get time on the 2nd unit PP all season. Not a ton, no, but even among guys on the 2nd unit PP he was unproductive.

All one can really say is that, once the 2nd unit from years past was reassembled and didn't click, Grabbo didn't get many more opportunities in a scoring role during 2012-13.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

If the Leafs can land a bonifide C for the 1st line and retain Bozak, I would would like Bozak to have the role of shutting down the oppositions best line.  Surely Grabs has more of a offensive upside than Bozak?  But then where do you put Kadri.

If you retain Bozak for the checking line and land a top center, you absolutely have to buy Grabovski out. But that most likely won't happen before the window closes July 4th, so Bozak is likely either the #1 center again, or he's gone somewhere else IMO.

 

[Seymore Pucks]

If the Leafs can land a bonifide C for the 1st line and retain Bozak, I would would like Bozak to have the role of shutting down the oppositions best line.  Surely Grabs has more of a offensive upside than Bozak?  But then where do you put Kadri.

If you retain Bozak for the checking line and land a top center, you absolutely have to buy Grabovski out. But that most likely won't happen before the window closes July 4th, so Bozak is likely either the #1 center again, or he's gone somewhere else IMO.

Even with buying out komi and Liles?  I think you are probably right though.  Kadri will have to get a lot better at faceoffs.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Even with buying out komi and Liles?  I think you are probably right though.  Kadri will have to get a lot better at faceoffs.

But you also don't want Kadri playing third line minutes either, he needs to play on the 1st or 2nd line. Liles is an asset you can trade, whereas Grabo, I'm not sure. I originally thought you might be able to trade him, but without him coming back this season, I'm beginning to think not this year for trade. Buyout is your option if you don't want to give him the year because you have other options that upgrade your team and allow Kadri the bigger minutes.

 

[Seymore Pucks]

Even with buying out komi and Liles?  I think you are probably right though.  Kadri will have to get a lot better at faceoffs.

But you also don't want Kadri playing third line minutes either, he needs to play on the 1st or 2nd line. Liles is an asset you can trade, whereas Grabo, I'm not sure. I originally thought you might be able to trade him, but without him coming back this season, I'm beginning to think not this year for trade. Buyout is your option if you don't want to give him the year because you have other options that upgrade your team and allow Kadri the bigger minutes.

I like Grabbo as player and has funny interviews so I hope he plays much better next season.  I would rather another top D man come in instead of a big center as I thought the Leafs speed up the middle is why we competed better against Boston than NY and Pitts did.  Im not against signing Bozak either as he does have a good skill set.  You make a lot of sense with your comments regardless.