My honest opinion for 2021-22

[Kin]

In that sense though isn't there a lot of risk tying that much cap space to a single player? If salary was spread out more you'd have more flexibility and the house of cards is less likely to fall apart with a singular injury. I mean, I get that most teams would be in tough if they lost one of their star centres but maybe you can mitigate that risk better. The team shouldn't be an injury to Tavares, Nylander, Matthews, Marner or even Muzzin away from winning and losing in the first round, it just seems very risky.

I appreciate the point you're making but the reality is that the team didn't "fall apart" with a single injury. They didn't get waxed in 4 like the Oilers after Tavares got hurt despite facing a team that was perfectly capable of beating a "better team" in 4 games like we saw in round 2 vs. the Jets. They sustained an injury to one of their top 4 players(and Foligno) and still very nearly won the series in 5 games.

If by "fall apart" you just mean lose a series then you might be right(although, and I can't stress this enough, any team is capable of losing in the first round for just about any reason) that a team without Tavares but with that cap space is more likely to win a first round series if one guy gets hurt but I don't think it makes the team better necessarily if the overall goal is to win the cup. And at that point you have to ask if the goal is to build a team capable of getting to the 2nd round if things go wrong or a team capable of winning the cup if things go right.

 

[Kin]

Maybe, but I think the issue this year was less Tavares getting hurt (though, obviously, that didn't help) but the team's best players mostly not playing their best. If Marner or Matthews put another puck or two past Price, and we're having a very different discussion. The lack of production from the depth forwards was obviously not great, but when your top players aren't among your top performers, you're not going to get very far.

Yeah, I think the point about Tavares' injury is being lost somewhat. It's not "the entire series hinged on Tavares getting hurt" but rather "the Leafs ran into a hot goalie and a team that shut down Matthews and Marner and got very unlucky with multiple injuries and they almost very nearly won the series convincingly, so let's not pretend retroactively that the talent difference was falsely stated".

And again, this is something that's come up in multiple threads now but there's a false dichotomy here being presented as some people think the team should be "top-heavy" and others who want to build good depth. Everyone wants the Leafs to have good depth, just that simply subtracting one of the team's better players and having a bunch of cap space in and of itself isn't a good way to build depth.

 

[Shamus2009]

In that sense though isn't there a lot of risk tying that much cap space to a single player? If salary was spread out more you'd have more flexibility and the house of cards is less likely to fall apart with a singular injury. I mean, I get that most teams would be in tough if they lost one of their star centres but maybe you can mitigate that risk better. The team shouldn't be an injury to Tavares, Nylander, Matthews, Marner or even Muzzin away from winning and losing in the first round, it just seems very risky.

Maybe, but I think the issue this year was less Tavares getting hurt (though, obviously, that didn't help) but the team's best players mostly not playing their best. If Marner or Matthews put another puck or two past Price, and we're having a very different discussion. The lack of production from the depth forwards was obviously not great, but when your top players aren't among your top performers, you're not going to get very far.

There really wasn?t a lack of scoring from the depth guys though, muzzin, kerfoot, spezza, Brodie, Riely all put up points just the Mitch and auston couldn?t get anything going after game four. Depth scoring wasn?t a problem this playoff run which is the worst part of all because the guys actually paid to score couldn?t, except nylander.


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[Shamus2009]

Maybe, but I think the issue this year was less Tavares getting hurt (though, obviously, that didn't help) but the team's best players mostly not playing their best. If Marner or Matthews put another puck or two past Price, and we're having a very different discussion. The lack of production from the depth forwards was obviously not great, but when your top players aren't among your top performers, you're not going to get very far.

Yeah, I think the point about Tavares' injury is being lost somewhat. It's not "the entire series hinged on Tavares getting hurt" but rather "the Leafs ran into a hot goalie and a team that shut down Matthews and Marner and got very unlucky with multiple injuries and they almost very nearly won the series convincingly, so let's not pretend retroactively that the talent difference was falsely stated".

And again, this is something that's come up in multiple threads now but there's a false dichotomy here being presented as some people think the team should be "top-heavy" and others who want to build good depth. Everyone wants the Leafs to have good depth, just that simply subtracting one of the team's better players and having a bunch of cap space in and of itself isn't a good way to build depth.

Price was good and made some big saves but for the most part he had it pretty easy very few second chance opportunities he was able to make the first save and cover it up. That game that that the leafs out shot Montreal 13?2 in overtime I counted 5 shots that were shot right to his glove with no traffic infront, just an open look for price. Price has a great glove hand and you shot the puck to his glove with no traffic it?s a dead puck. I was screaming at the tv the whole over time shoot for a rebound but shot after shot on his glove.


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[bustaheims]

There really wasn?t a lack of scoring from the depth guys though, muzzin, kerfoot, spezza, Brodie, Riely all put up points just the Mitch and auston couldn?t get anything going after game four. Depth scoring wasn?t a problem this playoff run which is the worst part of all because the guys actually paid to score couldn?t, except nylander.


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5 goals in 7 games from forwards not named Nylander or Spezza - and only 2 from guys not playing in the top 6 - is absolutely a lack of production from the depth forwards. The fact that the defence scored the same amount is nice, but is not at all a recipe for success. The top guys need to carry the majority of the load, but the Cup gets win by teams that have productive bottom 6 guys.

 

[Shamus2009]

There really wasn?t a lack of scoring from the depth guys though, muzzin, kerfoot, spezza, Brodie, Riely all put up points just the Mitch and auston couldn?t get anything going after game four. Depth scoring wasn?t a problem this playoff run which is the worst part of all because the guys actually paid to score couldn?t, except nylander.


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5 goals in 7 games from forwards not named Nylander or Spezza - and only 2 from guys not playing in the top 6 - is absolutely a lack of production from the depth forwards. The fact that the defence scored the same amount is nice, but is not at all a recipe for success. The top guys need to carry the majority of the load, but the Cup gets win by teams that have productive bottom 6 guys.

Spezza 3 goals is definitely depth scoring he?s a four liner. Muzzin is depth scoring, Thornton scored, kerfoot scored. That?s depth scoring no doubt about it.


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[bustaheims]

Spezza 3 goals is definitely depth scoring he?s a four liner. Muzzin is depth scoring, Thornton scored, kerfoot scored. That?s depth scoring no doubt about it.

Hey, if you consider a total of 5 goals in the series from forwards not named Nylander and Spezza to be enough depth, that's on you. I don't, and I doubt too many others around here do, either.

The defencemen contributed, sure, but you can't rely on them to drive the team's offence. Production has to come mainly from your forwards, and, outside of two guys, the Leafs didn't get enough of that.

 

[KW Sluggo]

I never did understand the Zaitsev departure in the sense that he was being asked by Babcock to play a different role, one he was ill suited for and didn't like. It seemed to me that the expedient step would have been to revert Zaitsev to his previous role where he played reasonable well (well enough to get a raise and a contract extension anyway) and wait to see how he performed.

Then there is the fact that Babcock was already on thin ice at the time -- although it was not publicly known at the time -- so why dump a player to satisfy a coach in that position?

The policy of giving away players and first rounders is stupid. Connor Brown springs to mind but there are others. The Marleau first round price was insane as was the same price paid to bring in Foligno -- a player that leaf management does not seem overly interested in retaining.

Shortly put, the debate as to wether Lou or Dubas is or was the better choice as GM avoids the alternative that perhaps neither one was better than the other ... or the best choice.

If it came down to a choice however, I would have chosen Lou, based purely on his body of work and his understanding of the type of player needed to win in the playoffs.

Insanity is repeating the same behaviour expecting a different result and the Dubas insistence that he will bet it all on this group makes me think 2021/22 will be his last as Leaf GM. Last year's roster was not good enough and I see nothing so far to indicate next years' will be better or even as good.

 

[Bender]

I never did understand the Zaitsev departure in the sense that he was being asked by Babcock to play a different role, one he was ill suited for and didn't like. It seemed to me that the expedient step would have been to revert Zaitsev to his previous role where he played reasonable well (well enough to get a raise and a contract extension anyway) and wait to see how he performed.

Then there is the fact that Babcock was already on thin ice at the time -- although it was not publicly known at the time -- so why dump a player to satisfy a coach in that position?

The policy of giving away players and first rounders is stupid. Connor Brown springs to mind but there are others. The Marleau first round price was insane as was the same price paid to bring in Foligno -- a player that leaf management does not seem overly interested in retaining.

Shortly put, the debate as to wether Lou or Dubas is or was the better choice as GM avoids the alternative that perhaps neither one was better than the other ... or the best choice.

If it came down to a choice however, I would have chosen Lou, based purely on his body of work and his understanding of the type of player needed to win in the playoffs.

Insanity is repeating the same behaviour expecting a different result and the Dubas insistence that he will bet it all on this group makes me think 2021/22 will be his last as Leaf GM. Last year's roster was not good enough and I see nothing so far to indicate next years' will be better or even as good.

I do agree with you near the end of the post but I do find it funny that Dubas had to clean up Lou's messes and then you say you'd keep Lou for his body of work.

 

[Champ Kind]

I never did understand the Zaitsev departure in the sense that he was being asked by Babcock to play a different role, one he was ill suited for and didn't like. It seemed to me that the expedient step would have been to revert Zaitsev to his previous role where he played reasonable well (well enough to get a raise and a contract extension anyway) and wait to see how he performed.

Then there is the fact that Babcock was already on thin ice at the time -- although it was not publicly known at the time -- so why dump a player to satisfy a coach in that position?

The policy of giving away players and first rounders is stupid. Connor Brown springs to mind but there are others. The Marleau first round price was insane as was the same price paid to bring in Foligno -- a player that leaf management does not seem overly interested in retaining.

Shortly put, the debate as to wether Lou or Dubas is or was the better choice as GM avoids the alternative that perhaps neither one was better than the other ... or the best choice.

If it came down to a choice however, I would have chosen Lou, based purely on his body of work and his understanding of the type of player needed to win in the playoffs.

Insanity is repeating the same behaviour expecting a different result and the Dubas insistence that he will bet it all on this group makes me think 2021/22 will be his last as Leaf GM. Last year's roster was not good enough and I see nothing so far to indicate next years' will be better or even as good.

Very unfair for you to call it a 'policy' of 'giving away players and first rounders'.  What, exactly, should Dubas have done with the Marleau contract?  Cap space is valuable, extremely valuable.  Did you see the recent Shane Gostisbehere trade to Arizona?  Competing GMs will demand a premium to help with cap issues, hence Dubas' stance with Edmonton on the Hyman deal.

I just don't understand the bias against Dubas.  I mean, have at it, he hasn't delivered the success we all hoped for.  But man alive at least use real examples rather than these straw-man arguments that are clearly disingenuous.

 

[Highlander]

I never did understand the Zaitsev departure in the sense that he was being asked by Babcock to play a different role, one he was ill suited for and didn't like. It seemed to me that the expedient step would have been to revert Zaitsev to his previous role where he played reasonable well (well enough to get a raise and a contract extension anyway) and wait to see how he performed.

Then there is the fact that Babcock was already on thin ice at the time -- although it was not publicly known at the time -- so why dump a player to satisfy a coach in that position?

The policy of giving away players and first rounders is stupid. Connor Brown springs to mind but there are others. The Marleau first round price was insane as was the same price paid to bring in Foligno -- a player that leaf management does not seem overly interested in retaining.

Shortly put, the debate as to wether Lou or Dubas is or was the better choice as GM avoids the alternative that perhaps neither one was better than the other ... or the best choice.

If it came down to a choice however, I would have chosen Lou, based purely on his body of work and his understanding of the type of player needed to win in the playoffs.

Insanity is repeating the same behaviour expecting a different result and the Dubas insistence that he will bet it all on this group makes me think 2021/22 will be his last as Leaf GM. Last year's roster was not good enough and I see nothing so far to indicate next years' will be better or even as good.

Very unfair for you to call it a 'policy' of 'giving away players and first rounders'.  What, exactly, should Dubas have done with the Marleau contract?  Cap space is valuable, extremely valuable.  Did you see the recent Shane Gostisbehere trade to Arizona?  Competing GMs will demand a premium to help with cap issues, hence Dubas' stance with Edmonton on the Hyman deal.

I just don't understand the bias against Dubas.  I mean, have at it, he hasn't delivered the success we all hoped for.  But man alive at least use real examples rather than these straw-man arguments that are clearly disingenuous.

Name 26 other teams that have a better record than the Leafs. Dubas is doing just fine. Trust the process..

 

[moon111]

As it stands... this might be the extent of the developed by the Leaf's line-up for next season.
---------- / Center / Right-Wing
----------/ ---------- / Right-Wing
--------- / ----------- / -------------
--------- / ----------- / -------------
Left defense / -------------
-------------- / --------------
-------------- / Right defense

----------------
----------------

Perhaps to that, you can add that most of the so-called assets they've had were were overpaid and under-performing with select few trading partners which resulted in many cases of buying high and selling low due to no fault of the current management.

David Clarkson, Patrick Marleau, Phil Kessel, Nazem Kadri, Matt Martin, Connor Brown, Nikita Zaitsev, Carl Grundstrom, Connor Carrick.

Perhaps the biggest criticism that could be done with the current Leaf's management is they allowed Hunter to draft guys with obviously no talent just because they were big.

 

[Shamus2009]

I never did understand the Zaitsev departure in the sense that he was being asked by Babcock to play a different role, one he was ill suited for and didn't like. It seemed to me that the expedient step would have been to revert Zaitsev to his previous role where he played reasonable well (well enough to get a raise and a contract extension anyway) and wait to see how he performed.

Then there is the fact that Babcock was already on thin ice at the time -- although it was not publicly known at the time -- so why dump a player to satisfy a coach in that position?

The policy of giving away players and first rounders is stupid. Connor Brown springs to mind but there are others. The Marleau first round price was insane as was the same price paid to bring in Foligno -- a player that leaf management does not seem overly interested in retaining.

Shortly put, the debate as to wether Lou or Dubas is or was the better choice as GM avoids the alternative that perhaps neither one was better than the other ... or the best choice.

If it came down to a choice however, I would have chosen Lou, based purely on his body of work and his understanding of the type of player needed to win in the playoffs.

Insanity is repeating the same behaviour expecting a different result and the Dubas insistence that he will bet it all on this group makes me think 2021/22 will be his last as Leaf GM. Last year's roster was not good enough and I see nothing so far to indicate next years' will be better or even as good.

Very unfair for you to call it a 'policy' of 'giving away players and first rounders'.  What, exactly, should Dubas have done with the Marleau contract?  Cap space is valuable, extremely valuable.  Did you see the recent Shane Gostisbehere trade to Arizona?  Competing GMs will demand a premium to help with cap issues, hence Dubas' stance with Edmonton on the Hyman deal.

I just don't understand the bias against Dubas.  I mean, have at it, he hasn't delivered the success we all hoped for.  But man alive at least use real examples rather than these straw-man arguments that are clearly disingenuous.

Name 26 other teams that have a better record than the Leafs. Dubas is doing just fine. Trust the process..

The process has been good regular seasons and poop the bed in the first round that?s not really something I feel comfortable trusting. The leafs organization has 3 more seasons to prove to Auston that they have a chance at a cup, he?s not a John Tavares or Jason spezza that grew up cheering for this team so chances are that after this contract he?ll hit the open market and like his last contract won?t be taking a home town discount. This season they have three extremely important rfa contracts. Campbell, Riely and sandin all of which I think are going to be huge factors in how the leafs do in the regular season. If the leafs finish top three in the Atlantic those three players are going to be key contributors to it. Then you have 13 million to try and get them signed which won?t happen your loosing at least 1 maybe two and then sign depth players as well so more bargain hunting. This is the season the leafs have to go go it not only because if they don?t the whole front office is getting canned but because if they don?t make a run this season I think the backend looks way different next season and not in a good way. Everyone says that sandin is the replacement for Riely but remember he?s a rfa this season too and if he has the season a lot of people are expecting he might want to hit the market and might move on as well and Reilly after the offseason that defencemen have had is going to be looking for 7-8.5 million.


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[OldTimeHockey]

Everyone says that sandin is the replacement for Riely but remember he?s a rfa this season too and if he has the season a lot of people are expecting he might want to hit the market and might move on as well

Sandin can't move on unless the Leafs want him to.

 

[Bender]

Everyone says that sandin is the replacement for Riely but remember he?s a rfa this season too and if he has the season a lot of people are expecting he might want to hit the market and might move on as well

Sandin can't move on unless the Leafs want him to.
[/quote]He's also barely cracked the lineup yet. Worrying about losing him is way premature.

 

[Joe S.]

Over the years I?ve seen the term ?hometown discount? thrown around and honestly, are there any examples of this actually happening? Where players left significant dollars on the table to stay ?home??

No one should have any expectations of Matthews taking a discount. He deserves whatever is coming to him.

 

[bustaheims]

Over the years I?ve seen the term ?hometown discount? thrown around and honestly, are there any examples of this actually happening? Where players left significant dollars on the table to stay ?home??

No one should have any expectations of Matthews taking a discount. He deserves whatever is coming to him.

Hard to say. There are definitely rumblings of players being offered more money to go elsewhere but chose to stay where they were - but, they're really just rumblings, and there's a lot of factors at play in that decision. Players aren't going to leave a contender, leave a situation where they're happy/comfortable, or choose to go to a bad team for a little extra cash.

 

[Kin]

Over the years I?ve seen the term ?hometown discount? thrown around and honestly, are there any examples of this actually happening? Where players left significant dollars on the table to stay ?home??

No one should have any expectations of Matthews taking a discount. He deserves whatever is coming to him.

To some extent, sure. People will cite Tampa lots and I think there are quite a few guys who took less than they almost certainly would have fetcged on the open market. Someone like Sid Crosby almost certainly could have gotten more than what he got as a UFA than he did signing long term in Pittsburgh.

The thing though, that people don't want to hear is...Matthews did kind of give the team a discount. By either way you could have measured it.

Would he have been offered more as a UFA? Yes.

Could he have demanded more and the Leafs probably would have given it to him? Again, yes. The Leafs don't ruin their relationship with him if he wants 12 million a season.