News Flash - Babcock Meeting with Matthews in Arizona

[OldTimeHockey]

I don't think we have anything close to the level of information needed to make intelligent conclusions here. To be honest, I'd sort of hope Matthews is a little upset. The team got knocked out in a tough fashion and he wasn't at his best and didn't get used enough. You want that to light a fire under him. Maybe Babcock wants to see how he reacts to that kind of frustration and adversity.

Lots of great athletes have had rocky relationships with their coaches that were defined by pushback and testing boundaries. If Matthews is the kind of competitor we need him to be then a "rift" with his coach could very well prove to be a positive.

I don't agree in the least.

Matthews can be angry. He can be pissed the way the season ended and that he was invisible for the entire playoffs but having a "rift" with a coach is Drouin territory for being a prima donna.

Like you said though, we have no idea what any of this means so why jump to conclusions.

Totally different circumstances. Drouin never was, nor ever could be the best and most talented player on Tampa. Any gripes he had about not playing more were his own inflated sense of worth. Babcock not playing Matthews more is a valid gripe, and has been pointed to by many hockey analysts as being a mistake. Matthews is a legit #1 center and should be given more playing time and trusted to lead the team.

I have no problem with a gripe with a coach because said player wants more playing time. My issue, as a coach, is that a player that wants more playing time, needs to play like they want more playing time. Matthews was far from the best player on the Leafs during the playoffs and the players that were playing well were given more opportunities.

I have no doubt in my mind that Matthews is a #1 centre on this team. But he's in his second year of hockey. I apologize if I see a supposed rift between a 2nd year player and a coach as a big red flag.

We can't equate our frustration with Babcock over his decisions to those of Matthews. IF(and that's a big IF) Matthews is pissed off about his lack of playing time, he can handle it in one of two ways:
1- "What do I have to do to get more playing time?. What can I work on?"
2- "Why the hell aren't you playing me? You're a jerk!"

#1 tells me you're a mature young player who wants to become better not only for yourself, but for the team
#2 tells me that you're spoiled and need to be taken down a notch.

 

[Kin]

IF(and that's a big IF) Matthews is pissed off about his lack of playing time, he can handle it in one of two ways:
1- "What do I have to do to get more playing time?. What can I work on?"
2- "Why the hell aren't you playing me? You're a jerk!"

#1 tells me you're a mature young player who wants to become better not only for yourself, but for the team
#2 tells me that you're spoiled and need to be taken down a notch.

I think the issue is seeing things in such black and white dichotomies without realizing there are various steps in between and that reacting in one way can transition to reacting in the other depending on the quality of coaching.

 

[Zee]

I don't think we have anything close to the level of information needed to make intelligent conclusions here. To be honest, I'd sort of hope Matthews is a little upset. The team got knocked out in a tough fashion and he wasn't at his best and didn't get used enough. You want that to light a fire under him. Maybe Babcock wants to see how he reacts to that kind of frustration and adversity.

Lots of great athletes have had rocky relationships with their coaches that were defined by pushback and testing boundaries. If Matthews is the kind of competitor we need him to be then a "rift" with his coach could very well prove to be a positive.

I don't agree in the least.

Matthews can be angry. He can be pissed the way the season ended and that he was invisible for the entire playoffs but having a "rift" with a coach is Drouin territory for being a prima donna.

Like you said though, we have no idea what any of this means so why jump to conclusions.

Totally different circumstances. Drouin never was, nor ever could be the best and most talented player on Tampa. Any gripes he had about not playing more were his own inflated sense of worth. Babcock not playing Matthews more is a valid gripe, and has been pointed to by many hockey analysts as being a mistake. Matthews is a legit #1 center and should be given more playing time and trusted to lead the team.

I have no problem with a gripe with a coach because said player wants more playing time. My issue, as a coach, is that a player that wants more playing time, needs to play like they want more playing time. Matthews was far from the best player on the Leafs during the playoffs and the players that were playing well were given more opportunities.

I have no doubt in my mind that Matthews is a #1 centre on this team. But he's in his second year of hockey. I apologize if I see a supposed rift between a 2nd year player and a coach as a big red flag.

We can't equate our frustration with Babcock over his decisions to those of Matthews. IF(and that's a big IF) Matthews is pissed off about his lack of playing time, he can handle it in one of two ways:
1- "What do I have to do to get more playing time?. What can I work on?"
2- "Why the hell aren't you playing me? You're a jerk!"

#1 tells me you're a mature young player who wants to become better not only for yourself, but for the team
#2 tells me that you're spoiled and need to be taken down a notch.

I get your position, the problem here is, we know nothing about what did or didn't happen between Matthews and Babcock.  Both have publicly denied any sort of falling out, take that for what it's worth.  For all we know, maybe your #1 scenario did indeed happen.  Matthews by all accounts is very driven and wants to be known as one of the best players in the world.  He might have had a face to face with Babcock and asked exactly what he needs to work on to make that happen  -- we don't know.  All we have is Kypreo's speculation that Babcock "lost" Matthews.  What's that based on?  Who knows, since very little ever leaks out of the Leafs organization.  The media could be taking  a frustration that Matthews showed post game and run with that story into some major falling out with the coach when really there's not much there.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Matthews can be angry. He can be pissed the way the season ended and that he was invisible for the entire playoffs but having a "rift" with a coach is Drouin territory for being a prima donna.

Well, that's just ridiculous. Lots of great hockey players have had "rifts" with their coaches. Yzerman and Bowman, for instance. Lecavalier and Tortorella.  Like I said though, the issue is how a player responds and whether they can work through their issues.

As Zee says, it's not like what Matthews could be upset about is wrong necessarily and there's more to being a good player than just mindlessly agreeing with a coach.

Like you said though, we have no idea what any of this means so why jump to conclusions.

Except of course the conclusion that any time a player and a coach disagree the player is a prima donna.

Where did I say to mindlessly agree with the coach? I'm of the same mindset as you in regards to how a player responds. See my response to Zee. Perhaps the word 'rift' is where I'm getting hung up.

As for Yzerman and Bowman.....Yzerman was in his 10th season when Babcock started coaching him. He had already had 6 straight seasons of 100points or more. He had already been the captain of the team for 7 or 8 seasons.

As for your last point. I'm not sure where I said that any time a player and a coach disagree, said player is a prima donna. 

Like I said, having a gripe is one thing. How you handle it is another.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

IF(and that's a big IF) Matthews is pissed off about his lack of playing time, he can handle it in one of two ways:
1- "What do I have to do to get more playing time?. What can I work on?"
2- "Why the hell aren't you playing me? You're a jerk!"

#1 tells me you're a mature young player who wants to become better not only for yourself, but for the team
#2 tells me that you're spoiled and need to be taken down a notch.

I think the issue is seeing things in such black and white dichotomies without realizing there are various steps in between and that reacting in one way can transition to reacting in the other depending on the quality of coaching.

I have no disagreement with that Nik.

Really it's a whole bunch of "what ifs" right now.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

The media could be taking  a frustration that Matthews showed post game and run with that story into some major falling out with the coach when really there's not much there.

I agree 100% Zee.

 

[herman]

Knowing what I know of Babcock over these past few years (character-wise), and knowing that has been written of Matthews (from the profile pieces, interviews), there is nothing to worry about here.

Babcock is the type of person who welcomes frank discussion and, while stubborn, is quite open to feedback/criticism and uses it to work towards better solutions (if convinced).

Matthews has a huge sense of responsibility and takes a lot of pride in winning and being responsible for winning (and thus feels the opposite as well).

Babcock always checks in with his players in the off-season; he genuinely cares about them as people, not just players. So he took an opportunity afforded by his family vacation to have a t?te-?-t?te with his primary success driver to come up with a plan for the next season and to make sure Matthews was in a positive space (a la Gardiner). It would be more worrisome to me if the coach didn't do this at all (not that anything would be publicized anyway in a less crazy market).

 

[Kin]

Like I said, I think there's way too much unknown right now to take firm and hard positions on anything really but I do think this should serve as a nice reminder that some of the baffling decisions Babcock makes and then stubbornly sticks to can have real consequences for the team going ahead. That lack of flexibility can have a real downside and just like we should expect a certain level of growth and improvement from players it's just as fair to expect that from the coach. You can do this, be critical of both, without giving up on them or thinking they're trash or hopeless or whatever.

So while I still don't buy there's anything serious going on here, I don't think the issues that could lead to something like this should just be dismissed or Babcock's real errors this year dealt with via shrug and "Well, that's ol' coach Babcock, what're you going to do?".

Coaching isn't like playing where you can expect consistent performances from year to year based on skill level. Coaches get stuck in their ways and each job presents fresh challenges. Coaches that succeed in one setting can struggle in another by trying to use a one size fits all approach. Dealing with player egos is a real part of the job and in this situation Babcock is probably dealing with guys who are more important to the future of the franchise than he is.

 

[Zee]

Like I said, I think there's way too much unknown right now to take firm and hard positions on anything really but I do think this should serve as a nice reminder that some of the baffling decisions Babcock makes and then stubbornly sticks to can have real consequences for the team going ahead. That lack of flexibility can have a real downside and just like we should expect a certain level of growth and improvement from players it's just as fair to expect that from the coach. You can do this, be critical of both, without giving up on them or thinking they're trash or hopeless or whatever.

So while I still don't buy there's anything serious going on here, I don't think the issues that could lead to something like this should just be dismissed or Babcock's real errors this year dealt with via shrug and "Well, that's ol' coach Babcock, what're you going to do?".

Coaching isn't like playing where you can expect consistent performances from year to year based on skill level. Coaches get stuck in their ways and each job presents fresh challenges. Coaches that succeed in one setting can struggle in another by trying to use a one size fits all approach. Dealing with player egos is a real part of the job and in this situation Babcock is probably dealing with guys who are more important to the future of the franchise than he is.

Well said Nik.  I heard that Babcock was a "progressive" coach that is always learning more and on top of the latest trends in hockey.  I have to see more forward thinking from Babcock to actually believe this.  He did finally come around to scratching Matt Martin, and then playing Johnsson and Kapanen ahead of Komarov in the playoffs despite Leo being relatively healthy.  Hopefully he realizes he has to change his approach for next season.

 

[cabber24]

"Hey Babs how about some mother f@$%ing powerplay time? None of this BS #2 unit stuff either. You think we can do that? Thanks."

 

[herman]

"Hey Babs how about some mother f@$%ing powerplay time? None of this BS #2 unit stuff either. You think we can do that? Thanks."

Why are you so coarse?

Matthews is getting PP1 time by default now due to the presumed removal of JvR/Bozak.

 

[Guilt Trip]

"Hey Babs how about some mother f@$%ing powerplay time? None of this BS #2 unit stuff either. You think we can do that? Thanks."

Why are you so coarse?

Matthews is getting PP1 time by default now due to the presumed removal of JvR/Bozak.

Key word, presumed lol.

 

[Highlander]

Hope they went out and hoisted a few brews at Harolds in Cave Creek, my favourite watering hole.

 

[Zee]

Hope they went out and hoisted a few brews at Harolds in Cave Creek, my favourite watering hole.

You think they hugged it out too. "i love you bro!"..."no I love you more bro!"

 

[herman]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/05/07/leafs-links-darren-dreger-sources-im-dealing-with-at-the-worlds-are-suggesting-that-its-the-likelihood-that-lou-lamoriello-moves-on/

Dreger isn't my first source for information, but in this one he names his source.

Dreger on the reports of Mike Babcock meeting with Auston Matthews in Arizona:

When I was connecting with Mike for Dreger Caf? purposes, we just swapped a little bit of intel. I asked him about what had been reported, about him going to Arizona to meet with Auston Matthews. He didn?t deny that he was going to meet with Matthews and probably had already, but the truth is, it?s family vacation. Him and his wife and daughter are visiting some family friends and they were going to do some sightseeing and do what families do during the offseason. It?s more than coincidental that they chose Arizona but, again, they?re visiting a family friend. He?s making his way over to Denmark in a few days and there is no question he is going to meet with Frederik Andersen. He is doing a bit of a tour, which isn?t abnormal. Coaches do this.

? I would describe it as unusual, yes, just based on the timing of it [two weeks after the season]. What is probably just as unusual is the fact that the information got out. There are coaches around the league that do this year by year.

 

[rdowdall]

Hope they went out and hoisted a few brews at Harolds in Cave Creek, my favourite watering hole.

You think they hugged it out too. "i love you bro!"..."no I love you more bro!"

As Babcock becomes inebriated, do you think he starts pronouncing good the right way?

 

[cabber24]

"Hey Babs how about some mother f@$%ing powerplay time? None of this BS #2 unit stuff either. You think we can do that? Thanks."

Why are you so coarse?

Matthews is getting PP1 time by default now due to the presumed removal of JvR/Bozak.

Although coarse, I believe it's all that needs to be said, straight to the point. Like seriously, play your best player on the first PP unit.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Although coarse, I believe it's all that needs to be said, straight to the point. Like seriously, play your best player on the first PP unit.

I have my issues with Babcock, and minor nitpicks about the PP in general, but it's a little tough to complain toooooo much about the 2nd best powerplay in the league this season.

Also, Matthews did average essentially the same amount of PP time as everyone else, so I wouldn't really say he was PP2. Both units were evenly played. Who goes on first was often decided by who was out last.

 

[herman]

Although coarse, I believe it's all that needs to be said, straight to the point. Like seriously, play your best player on the first PP unit.

I have my issues with Babcock, and minor nitpicks about the PP in general, but it's a little tough to complain toooooo much about the 2nd best powerplay in the league this season.

Also, Matthews did average essentially the same amount of PP time as everyone else, so I wouldn't really say he was PP2. Both units were evenly played. Who goes on first was often decided by who was out last.

Yeah, PP time was more a function of circumstance, given both units were fiyah last season. Once it was pretty clear Matthews' unit was cold, they got more second showings, which have the disadvantage of being taken on the fly (i.e. more difficult to gain zone time). Towards the end of the season, Babcock made a point of sending out the Matthews' unit first to fire them up for the playoffs.

Matthews also played the most minutes for a forward on the team, and it's around in line with some of the stars around the league on deep teams. It's not Barkov/McDavid, which I think is a crazy amount with diminishing returns.

 

[Frank E]

Although coarse, I believe it's all that needs to be said, straight to the point. Like seriously, play your best player on the first PP unit.

I have my issues with Babcock, and minor nitpicks about the PP in general, but it's a little tough to complain toooooo much about the 2nd best powerplay in the league this season.

Also, Matthews did average essentially the same amount of PP time as everyone else, so I wouldn't really say he was PP2. Both units were evenly played. Who goes on first was often decided by who was out last.

According to nhl.com, Matthews was 6th on the team in the playoffs, and 9th during the regular season, in PP TOI.