Of Nonis, Babcock & who the heck is going to be running this asylum on draft day

[Frank E]

I think Carlyle comes across as an honest guy...he admitted that he coached the way he did because of the horses that he had. 

I think if the Horachek era has shown us anything, it's that this was a pretty flawed bunch from the get-go...it wasn't necessarily a coaching problem as much as a team construction problem.

I never really had a problem with Randy, in that I never really thought this team was bad because of him.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I think Carlyle comes across as an honest guy...he admitted that he coached the way he did because of the horses that he had. 

I think if the Horachek era has shown us anything, it's that this was a pretty flawed bunch from the get-go...it wasn't necessarily a coaching problem as much as a team construction problem.

I never really had a problem with Randy, in that I never really thought this team was bad because of him.

They are also not equipped to be a dump and chase team, that's where most reasonable people I saw had trouble with Carlyle, he preached a system that saw them constantly lose possession and get victimised by it.

Sure they aren't built to be a defensive team, but they also weren't built to play the type of game Randy tried to have them play, it was unsustainable as it relied on super human goaltending.

 

[Highlander]

I like Randy a lot and in retrospect after reading what he just said, it makes a tremendous amont of sense. The players, especially Phil wanted to play pond shinny, work of the break and hope the goalies can handle 50 shots against a night. If the horses cannot be trained then let em run (and gun). I guess that is why we truly need to clean this house.

 

[Frank E]

I think Carlyle comes across as an honest guy...he admitted that he coached the way he did because of the horses that he had. 

I think if the Horachek era has shown us anything, it's that this was a pretty flawed bunch from the get-go...it wasn't necessarily a coaching problem as much as a team construction problem.

I never really had a problem with Randy, in that I never really thought this team was bad because of him.

They are also not equipped to be a dump and chase team, that's where most reasonable people I saw had trouble with Carlyle, he preached a system that saw them constantly lose possession and get victimised by it.

Sure they aren't built to be a defensive team, but they also weren't built to play the type of game Randy tried to have them play, it was unsustainable as it relied on super human goaltending.

Sure, they weren't very good at being a run-and-gun quick transition team. 

But let's be honest, they were better at that than they were at tighter-checking defensive hockey.  They were terrible at that.

The result of the season obviously shows that, in general, they suck.  I just think they sucked less under Carlyle's style than Horachek's. 

We'll see a 3rd approach within 10 months this fall.

 

[Highlander]

Tank God

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I think Carlyle comes across as an honest guy...he admitted that he coached the way he did because of the horses that he had. 

I think if the Horachek era has shown us anything, it's that this was a pretty flawed bunch from the get-go...it wasn't necessarily a coaching problem as much as a team construction problem.

I never really had a problem with Randy, in that I never really thought this team was bad because of him.

They are also not equipped to be a dump and chase team, that's where most reasonable people I saw had trouble with Carlyle, he preached a system that saw them constantly lose possession and get victimised by it.

Sure they aren't built to be a defensive team, but they also weren't built to play the type of game Randy tried to have them play, it was unsustainable as it relied on super human goaltending.

Sure, they weren't very good at being a run-and-gun quick transition team. 

But let's be honest, they were better at that than they were at tighter-checking defensive hockey.  They were terrible at that.

The result of the season obviously shows that, in general, they suck.  I just think they sucked less under Carlyle's style than Horachek's. 

We'll see a 3rd approach within 10 months this fall.

See, Carlyle never had a run and gun team, he had a team that attempted quick transitions when the forwards successfully cheated, but their game was dump and chase.

They could have probably been a run and gun team, had the focus been on playing the percentages, aka keeping puck possesion instead of just dumping it in.

I think that was the major frustration, most saw that they weren't ever going to be a LA Kings dump and grind team, but they could've have more success if they'd retained the puck more entering the offensive zone.

The beauty of this approach is that you don't have to be amazing defensively because you spend the majority of the time on attack, where obviously the Leafs skill players excelled.

 

[Frank E]

See, Carlyle never had a run and gun team, he had a team that attempted quick transitions when the forwards successfully cheated, but their game was dump and chase.

They could have probably been a run and gun team, had the focus been on playing the percentages, aka keeping puck possesion instead of just dumping it in.

I think that was the major frustration, most saw that they weren't ever going to be a LA Kings dump and grind team, but they could've have more success if they'd retained the puck more entering the offensive zone.

The beauty of this approach is that you don't have to be amazing defensively because you spend the majority of the time on attack, where obviously the Leafs skill players excelled.

I think Carlyle even suggested as much in the article: they tried to be a score off the rush with a quick transition...in his words "dangerous"...and that mainly was centered around Kessel's skillset.  That's how I describe a "run and gun" style. 

Definitely not a cycle/grind/possession game team.

I kind of think Winnik and Santorelli were decent grinders in the cycle game, but didn't have a finisher playing with them.  Once those 2 were traded, that whole part of the game disappeared, and so did the season.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

See, Carlyle never had a run and gun team, he had a team that attempted quick transitions when the forwards successfully cheated, but their game was dump and chase.

They could have probably been a run and gun team, had the focus been on playing the percentages, aka keeping puck possesion instead of just dumping it in.

I think that was the major frustration, most saw that they weren't ever going to be a LA Kings dump and grind team, but they could've have more success if they'd retained the puck more entering the offensive zone.

The beauty of this approach is that you don't have to be amazing defensively because you spend the majority of the time on attack, where obviously the Leafs skill players excelled.

I think Carlyle even suggested as much in the article: they tried to be a score off the rush with a quick transition...in his words "dangerous"...and that mainly was centered around Kessel's skillset.  That's how I describe a "run and gun" style. 

Definitely not a cycle/grind/possession game team.

I kind of think Winnik and Santorelli were decent grinders in the cycle game, but didn't have a finisher playing with them.  Once those 2 were traded, that whole part of the game disappeared, and so did the season.

Randy can say that, but the evidence says otherwise.

Don't you recall the breakout they used for almost all of his time here? Long bomb from deep in dzone to a forward standing still just over the red line, who tipped the puck to negate icing, then they'd try and retrieve it, that's not run and gun, despite what anyone tries to call it, that's dump and chase.

 

[cw]

I like Randy a lot and in retrospect after reading what he just said, it makes a tremendous amont of sense. The players, especially Phil wanted to play pond shinny, work of the break and hope the goalies can handle 50 shots against a night. If the horses cannot be trained then let em run (and gun). I guess that is why we truly need to clean this house.

Wilson said it. Lieweke said it. Horachek said it. Shanahan said it. Now Carlyle. They all used different words but there's some themes that come across in all of their observations. It all lines up with what we saw and what some players like Robidas, Polak, Reimer, etc expressed concern about.

When they're done gutting this roster, it may make what happened to the scouts look somewhat insignificant by comparison. They cannot ignore what all these men said about the core talent on this roster.

In light of that, I suspect Kessel is at or near the top of the Leafs "to go" list and he'll probably just go to the highest bidder of the teams on his acceptable trade destinations list. Another year of this isn't likely to do much for his trade value because the cat is kind of out of the bag - he is what he is and everybody has a pretty good idea of what that is. Time to move on.

 

[Kin]

It really is stunning how many coaches and executives are eager to shift the blame off of themselves.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

It really is stunning how many coaches and executives are eager to shift the blame off of themselves.

While it is shocking, the team's record before and after the Carlyle firing kind of points to it not being the coaches fault. I realize that's not the whole story, nor the reason the team mailed it in for 4 months....but...

 

[Kin]

It really is stunning how many coaches and executives are eager to shift the blame off of themselves.

While it is shocking, the team's record before and after the Carlyle firing kind of points to it not being the coaches fault. I realize that's not the whole story, nor the reason the team mailed it in for 4 months....but...

If by "it" you mean the bad record then there is no one reason for why the team is bad but Carlyle, someone who made some pretty questionable strategic decisions along with having a large hand in how the roster was shaped, probably deserves as much blame as anyone.

At one point this team had a pretty good second line that could score and play defensively responsible hockey and Carlyle did everything but chase them out of town.

 

[cw]

It really is stunning how many coaches and executives are eager to shift the blame off of themselves.

While it is shocking, the team's record before and after the Carlyle firing kind of points to it not being the coaches fault. I realize that's not the whole story, nor the reason the team mailed it in for 4 months....but...

I don't find it stunning or shocking. These guys got asked questions and they answered them.

I find very limited fault with Leiweke and Shanahan as they didn't have much to do with the current on ice product. their remarks were based upon their observations during a period of getting acquainted with the talent on the club.

As for the others, the coaches don't play the games - the players do. And I think it's fair to say, after a few coaches, something beyond the coaching fell short. Some of that falls on the GM. And some of that falls on the players.  In making these remarks, I didn't hear any of the coaches say "none of this was my fault".

As well, what these coaches observed isn't far off what other players, the media and fans saw. In other words, there is some merit and consensus to these remarks - they just more or less confirm things.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

It really is stunning how many coaches and executives are eager to shift the blame off of themselves.

While it is shocking, the team's record before and after the Carlyle firing kind of points to it not being the coaches fault. I realize that's not the whole story, nor the reason the team mailed it in for 4 months....but...

If by "it" you mean the bad record then there is no one reason for why the team is bad but Carlyle, someone who made some pretty questionable strategic decisions along with having a large hand in how the roster was shaped, probably deserves as much blame as anyone.

At one point this team had a pretty good second line that could score and play defensively responsible hockey and Carlyle did everything but chase them out of town.

The bottom line is that after Carlyle was fired, the team won under 30% of their games. Like I said, the wins/losses don't tell the whole story. But it makes it darn easy for Carlyle to say "well look at that, I guess I wasn't the problem"

 

[cw]

It really is stunning how many coaches and executives are eager to shift the blame off of themselves.

While it is shocking, the team's record before and after the Carlyle firing kind of points to it not being the coaches fault. I realize that's not the whole story, nor the reason the team mailed it in for 4 months....but...

If by "it" you mean the bad record then there is no one reason for why the team is bad but Carlyle, someone who made some pretty questionable strategic decisions along with having a large hand in how the roster was shaped, probably deserves as much blame as anyone.

At one point this team had a pretty good second line that could score and play defensively responsible hockey and Carlyle did everything but chase them out of town.

The bottom line is that after Carlyle was fired, the team won under 30% of their games. Like I said, the wins/losses don't tell the whole story. But it makes it darn easy for Carlyle to say "well look at that, I guess I wasn't the problem"

On top of that, before he was fired, Carlyle warned the team that if they didn't change their ways, they'd get into trouble. He could see the bubble was going to burst. And as he comments recently, they didn't change their ways and what he said would come to pass did. Again, that doesn't entirely exonerate Carlyle but it sure doesn't hurt him as much. He called it. The core made their choice.

 

[pmrules]

It really is stunning how many coaches and executives are eager to shift the blame off of themselves.

Uhmm...the players are no different in deflecting blame.

Phil Kessel - You think it's my fault?

David Clarkson - he was being benched to send a message to the team.

 

[Kin]

The bottom line is that after Carlyle was fired, the team won under 30% of their games. Like I said, the wins/losses don't tell the whole story. But it makes it darn easy for Carlyle to say "well look at that, I guess I wasn't the problem"

A logic that I'm sure will be as applicable to next year's record and the players they jettison this off-season.

 

[Kin]

It really is stunning how many coaches and executives are eager to shift the blame off of themselves.

Uhmm...the players are no different in deflecting blame.

Yes, I was being sarcastic. I am, in fact, not all that surprised when people look to weasel out of blame.

 

[herman]

It was pretty clear at Carlyle's exit that his mandate this year was to enforce a sustainable possession style of play, emphasizing team defence and structure, i.e. exactly what Horachek did. The goal was to assess which players could handle the system and not worry so much about the wins and losses coming up to a generational draft class.

In my eyes, Carlyle was canned because he abandoned the plan and just went with an unsustainable strategy that paid early dividends to save his own record. He made the players play the dubious dump and chase game, and encouraged (or did not dissuade) risky transitional play, all the while harping on players for not playing turtle defence while asking them to blow the zone early.

Those early poorly played wins reinforced bad habits and stunted proper development of younger players (who Carlyle refused to nurture growth in). Those extra points could have put a couple more lotto balls under the Leafs' allotment.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

It really is stunning how many coaches and executives are eager to shift the blame off of themselves.

Uhmm...the players are no different in deflecting blame.

Yes, I was being sarcastic. I am, in fact, not all that surprised when people look to weasel out of blame.

Especially when they're looking to work again as a head coach.  After hearing so much from Wilson after being fired, I think Carlyle actually handled himself pretty well in that interview.  I kind of felt bad for him when he was let go, too, but that's life as a NHL coach.  I think he'll be working again in the next season or two, but have serious doubts about Wilson.