Official Tank Nation Topic

[maplesyrup]

Can't lose'em all.

^ This made me smile. ^

 

[Sabres4now]

Montreal is within 1 point.

Habs winning 1-0.... Wahoo! Go Habs Go!

 

[bustaheims]

SNRJBroadhead: Galchenyuk out in the 2nd with upper body injury. Got 4 periods in before getting hurt again. #FridayNightHockey tied after 2

He had recently fallen to 16th in the ISS rankings and, if this injury takes him out for anything more than a game or two, he'll drop even further and off of Burke's radar, I would imagine - can't see him blowing a 1st round pick on a guy who is already that injury prone.

 

[Britishbulldog]

Woohoo!!  Just finished watching the Montreal/NYI game and they went to a shootout with NYI winning.  That means their are both 1 point behind the Leafs and the Sens are one point ahead of Boston again!!

 

[Manson]

Woohoo!!  Just finished watching the Montreal/NYI game and they went to a shootout with NYI winning.  That means their are both 1 point behind the Leafs and the Sens are one point ahead of Boston again!!

Wrong on both counts.

 

[Britishbulldog]

Woohoo!!  Just finished watching the Montreal/NYI game and they went to a shootout with NYI winning.  That means their are both 1 point behind the Leafs and the Sens are one point ahead of Boston again!!

Wrong on both counts.

Oh well my Leafs must have no chance of making the playoffs if they are winning again.  I don't know another sports team that can so convincingly suck at winning when they need to and suck at losing when they need to.

 

[Wendel's Fist]

The sad reality with the Leafs is, we're not going to be winning a cup within the next 10 years.....minimum.

There are teams that are ahead of us on the NHL and AHL levels at the same time so how in the hell are we going to beat them anytime soon?

Phil Kessel and Joe Colborne were expendable in Boston and the Bruins still won the cup. Boston has Tyler Seguin to build around when their team slows down due to age. We are building our team around Kessel and hoping that Colborne might be a second line center someday. It's kind of pathetic when we couldn't win one game against Boston this year. Never mind playoff pressure.

Edmonton's team will kick the youth out of our team in a couple of years too. They actually have a first line in the making.

Unless the Leafs tank for this and a couple more years, I just don't see how we're ever going to win a cup.

It's nice that Burke isn't interested in draft picks because he doesn't want to wait. So........what else are we doing right now other than waiting Burkie?

Get that team fired up to win so we can look back on those March/April wins forever as the best days of our lives.

The anti-tank nation must be beaming with pride for all those useless end of the year wins from the past 7 years. Those wins really did carry through to the next season. Do they do anything for you now?

At this point, I'd have no shame in the Leafs dressing up anybody off the street to finish off the season and claiming that the rest of the team had the flu.

Just to be fair, I think it was perfectly fine to be excited about last year's team with a goaltender playing like James did for as long as he did and hope to get in. I honestly don't see anything wrong with that.

It's pretty funny though, it's as if people's views on the team aren't nuanced to some extent. Believe it or not it's not all YAY BURKE, and BURKE'S A DOUCHE. I wanted them to tank in 2008 and 2009 in order to get better picks.

At the same time I don't think you can really chastise people for wanting the team to be a success. It's not like their views make a difference in how the team is run one way or another. I happen to be a little less bleak in my outlook on the team in general, but I don't really see why you should have an issue with that.

It was perfectly fine to hope for the playoffs last year, if you didn't want the Leafs to ever win a cup.

Again, I don't get how that helped us now. Were we much better this year because of it?

Burke himself said that he doesn't just want to get into the playoffs and get knocked out right away. So.......what are we doing because if we get in, we're not going anywhere.

We can't even get into the playoffs and pretending like you can band-aid a team to a Stanley Cup is delusional.

Good thing Burke wasn't interested in waiting 5 years to turn this team around when he first got here. He needed immediate results.

Going on year 5 and fans still want a Stamkos without bottoming out. It just doesn't work out that way.

Tampa's won a cup before the Leafs have in the past 10 years and it wasn't because they were at the top or middle of the standings when they first came in.

They still managed to get Stamkos after winning that cup and we have Tyler Bozak. GO LEAFS GO!!

Clearly we are at an impasse. You also didn't answer the question: how does the way I cheer for my team impact you or the way the team is run? I want the Leafs to win a Cup and I see absolutely no correlation between cheering for them to make it in last year and not wanting them to be long term contenders.

Its funny because I feel like you have this fatalistic view on our team like no players that we have at present have capacity for improvement. Yes, maybe a proper rebuild would be better. But we have guys like Joe Colborne, Jake Gardiner, Carter Ashton etc. now and I see no reason not to cheer them on.  What's done is done.

Do I want the team to tank this year? Admittedly, yes. Will I actually ROOT for them to lose? No, and again, I dont see why youve taken it upon yourself to judge fans like myself because our views differ. We can debate viewpoints all we want, but to me your jumping to conclusions on "types of fans" is a bit unsettling, especially when my opinion of the team has no real impact at all.

You never posed a question in your post. Do you see a question mark at the end of anything you said?? I don't.

How am I supposed to answer a question that you didn't ask??

We're at an impasse with reality, Bender. We either bottom out and get players like Crosby, Stamkos, Hall........or we try to make the playoffs year after year and get whatever we can.

All those towns went through worse times than we have and they're better off now. We've never been at the basement. (except for when we did all we could for Boston to get Seguin)

I don't know how old you are but there was a time when Detroit was the worst team in the league for a very long time. It was almost a joke to have the Leafs play them.

That's why they're so good now.

To answer the question that you never asked............cheer the team all you want. I'm just tired of the same old.

You didn't answer my question..............how are we going to beat Tampa with Stamkos as their building block....never mind Crosby being all of 24 years old and Malkin as his sidekick who's 25?

At what time are we going to beat them with what we have with just hanging on every year and hoping for a playoff birth?

Nazem Kadri, Joe Colborne and Matt Frattin??? Seriously?

Ok how about this: you made no counterpoint to it, when it was clearly something we were debating. I also clearly asked the question in the second post but you seem to have skirted around the issue.

Youre making judgments on fans based on the way they cheer for the team. I don't think it really makes a difference one way or another if they cheer for the playoffs or cheer for a tank for a bunch of years, management will run the team the way they see fit.

And for the record I have no idea what you're arguing against because I am in favour of a rebuild. But at the same time there are examples that don't fit your mold. The St. Louis Blues - one of the best teams in the NHL right now - didn't draft a boat load of their players. Detroit hasn't tanked in almost 20 years (didn't need to tank to get Lidstrom), Boston hasn't REALLY tanked. Yeah they're better set up for the future but they didn't win BECAUSE of Seguin. The cornerstone of that team is Chara - a ufa - and I would argue that the team wasn't ready to compete when they brought him in. Their tanking early on in the decade didn't really impact them, they made shrewd moves and their prospects like Marchand, Krejci and Bergeron (none of which who were picked in the first round) really developed.

Scoff as much as you want at our prospects but I see no reason to not hope that players like Kadri, Colborne, Frattin etc al. develop into legitimate hockey players like those three in Boston.

So you can witch until you have one foot in the grave, personally I'll cheer for my team, even during rough seasons knowing that a team I cheered for didn't cause any undue suffering like it seems to have caused in a few others.

Well if you look at the cup winners from the past 10 years and high draft picks........Seguin did win Boston an important game and who knows if they would have won the cup without that because a lot of people thought they were done a few times in the playoffs.

New Jersey won with Niedermayer. Chicago won with Kane and Toews. Pittsburgh won with Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Staal. Tampa won with Lecavalier. Detroit won with Yzerman and Shanahan who was aquired through the Keith Primeau trade. Anaheim won with Bobby Ryan. Carolina won with Eric Staal. Colorado won with Forsberg who was aquired because of the Lindros pick. Detroit won in 2008 without Yzerman or a first round pick but something tells me that their front office is a little better than our's and that's one team out of ten. (or 9 since since Detroit won twice)

So yeah, I guess getting a high draft pick really hurts a team.

When I look at those teams and look at the Leafs, I can't help but think of this........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b0ftfKFEJg

You keep saying that I'm pessimistic. Knowing that the Leafs aren't going to win a cup anytime soon is the same thing as knowing that you're going to die one day. It isn't pessimism. It's reality.

Like I said, there are teams that are ahead of us at the NHL and AHL level so we aren't beating them anytime soon and we don't have anything to trade to change that. The only way I can see past that is bottoming out and drafting high.

If winning at the end of the season does something for you then cheer your lungs out. I just don't care for the same thing year after year and pretending like we're going to beat teams that are years ahead of us because we had a great run at the end of the season.

It's nothing personal. We both want the same thing but have different ideas of how to get there.

It's just hockey anyway.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Not again!!!!!!

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

What about the teams that have had top 5 picks (some of them multiple times) and still have no success to show for it?

I would love a top pick, but I would love more to have a very well-built team.  Tampa has Stamkos, but they're showing it means nothing unless you can get pieces like goaltending.  Washington bottomed out and still are having trouble making the playoffs.

It's all well and good to only look at the instances where a top pick ended up winning a Cup with the team, but it's so much more than just getting a top pick.

I'm not sure why Kessel is disregarded but Seguin is considered a great building block, it's not like Kessel is past his prime, nor has Seguin demonstrated he is in the Stamkos-level.

 

[Wendel's Fist]

Not again!!!!!!

I'm having a hard time with the Leafs winning tonight too. Just take a deep breath.

 

[pnjunction]

I'm not sure why Kessel is disregarded but Seguin is considered a great building block, it's not like Kessel is past his prime, nor has Seguin demonstrated he is in the Stamkos-level.

Part of it, to me anyways, is how long they are locked up.  Kessel can walk in 2 years.  Seguin will also be getting a big raise soon but he is restricted for I think 5 more seasons.

 

[Wendel's Fist]

What about the teams that have had top 5 picks (some of them multiple times) and still have no success to show for it?

I would love a top pick, but I would love more to have a very well-built team.  Tampa has Stamkos, but they're showing it means nothing unless you can get pieces like goaltending.  Washington bottomed out and still are having trouble making the playoffs.

It's all well and good to only look at the instances where a top pick ended up winning a Cup with the team, but it's so much more than just getting a top pick.

I'm not sure why Kessel is disregarded but Seguin is considered a great building block, it's not like Kessel is past his prime, nor has Seguin demonstrated he is in the Stamkos-level.

Well, what about teams that won the cup in the past ten years with a high draft pick?

Kessel and Colborne were expendable to Boston and they still won a cup. How are we going to beat them sooner or later?
Those same two players are what we have our future hopes on.

You would honestly rather have Kessel as your building block over Seguin? Every time Tyler plays the Leafs, he's on fire. Kessel barely shows up against Boston. Are you going to tell me that it doesn't get on your nerves when Seguin gets his second goal of the night agains the Leafs and Kessel doesn't do much?

I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade. I just don't see the reality that you do.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

What about the teams that have had top 5 picks (some of them multiple times) and still have no success to show for it?

I would love a top pick, but I would love more to have a very well-built team.  Tampa has Stamkos, but they're showing it means nothing unless you can get pieces like goaltending.  Washington bottomed out and still are having trouble making the playoffs.

It's all well and good to only look at the instances where a top pick ended up winning a Cup with the team, but it's so much more than just getting a top pick.

I'm not sure why Kessel is disregarded but Seguin is considered a great building block, it's not like Kessel is past his prime, nor has Seguin demonstrated he is in the Stamkos-level.

Well, what about teams that won the cup in the past ten years with a high draft pick?

Kessel and Colborne were expendable to Boston and they still won a cup. How are we going to beat them sooner or later?
Those same two players are what we have our future hopes on.

You would honestly rather have Kessel as your building block over Seguin? Every time Tyler plays the Leafs, he's on fire. Kessel barely shows up against Boston. Are you going to tell me that it doesn't get on your nerves when Seguin gets his second goal of the night agains the Leafs and Kessel doesn't do much?

I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade. I just don't see the reality that you do.

What about the teams that won the Cup in the past ten years with a high draft pick?  I'm guessing almost every team in the league will have a high draft pick on their team (we have two top 5 picks on ours). 

We had a captain and #1 overall on our roster for 13 years and it didn't result in a Cup.  Like I said, I care more about building a strong team than getting worked up over a top pick.  I think it is more important, and I think you can win without a top pick, but you can't win without a solid, deep roster.

As far as I'm aware, Kessel was deemed "expendable" because the Bruins were close to the cap and they couldn't come to terms on a new contract.  I don't think it was a matter of "we can't win with this guy", and I don't think keeping him would have prevented that team from winning the Cup.  I mean, the best player in NHL history was traded and the team still won a Cup!

If we're a poor team in your eyes, then why should I be impressed if Seguin looks good against us? 

I'm bothered by our lack of success against Boston, but only so far as it is a lack of success against a divisional opponent who is a rival - but I would be upset if we were winless against any team (like Florida).  It's compounded because we play Boston so often, but we beat them a few times the year they won the Cup with pretty similar rosters as this season - we just crapped the bed against them this season, plain and simple (in my opinion).

 

[Wendel's Fist]

What about the teams that have had top 5 picks (some of them multiple times) and still have no success to show for it?

I would love a top pick, but I would love more to have a very well-built team.  Tampa has Stamkos, but they're showing it means nothing unless you can get pieces like goaltending.  Washington bottomed out and still are having trouble making the playoffs.

It's all well and good to only look at the instances where a top pick ended up winning a Cup with the team, but it's so much more than just getting a top pick.

I'm not sure why Kessel is disregarded but Seguin is considered a great building block, it's not like Kessel is past his prime, nor has Seguin demonstrated he is in the Stamkos-level.

Well, what about teams that won the cup in the past ten years with a high draft pick?

Kessel and Colborne were expendable to Boston and they still won a cup. How are we going to beat them sooner or later?
Those same two players are what we have our future hopes on.

You would honestly rather have Kessel as your building block over Seguin? Every time Tyler plays the Leafs, he's on fire. Kessel barely shows up against Boston. Are you going to tell me that it doesn't get on your nerves when Seguin gets his second goal of the night agains the Leafs and Kessel doesn't do much?

I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade. I just don't see the reality that you do.

What about the teams that won the Cup in the past ten years with a high draft pick?  I'm guessing almost every team in the league will have a high draft pick on their team (we have two top 5 picks on ours). 

We had a captain and #1 overall on our roster for 13 years and it didn't result in a Cup.  Like I said, I care more about building a strong team than getting worked up over a top pick.  I think it is more important, and I think you can win without a top pick, but you can't win without a solid, deep roster.

As far as I'm aware, Kessel was deemed "expendable" because the Bruins were close to the cap and they couldn't come to terms on a new contract.  I don't think it was a matter of "we can't win with this guy", and I don't think keeping him would have prevented that team from winning the Cup.  I mean, the best player in NHL history was traded and the team still won a Cup!

If we're a poor team in your eyes, then why should I be impressed if Seguin looks good against us? 

I'm bothered by our lack of success against Boston, but only so far as it is a lack of success against a divisional opponent who is a rival - but I would be upset if we were winless against any team (like Florida).  It's compounded because we play Boston so often, but we beat them a few times the year they won the Cup with pretty similar rosters as this season - we just crapped the bed against them this season, plain and simple (in my opinion).

No Potvin, I meant high draft picks that teams picked themselves. All of those teams that won the cup in the past ten years did that. If you go by what you're saying........every team in the league has a high draft pick player on their team but the teams that win cups are the ones that drafted one themselves......to build around.

At least the past ten years would tell you so. I didn't bother to go further back.

I don't think it's a fluke that it's worked out for other teams.

I just don't see any way around what we have now with missing the playoffs year after year and bottoming out to get better. We have nothing to trade for a first line center. We also can't sign one..............so what do we do?

Tell me because Brian Burke knows more about hockey than all of us on this board put together and I don't see him giving any answers to that either.

 

[TML fan]

What's the difference if you draft them yourself or if you trade for them?

I think goaltending matters more anyway if you're building your team around a specific player.

 

[Fanatic]

If the season ended today the Leafs would finish 11th in the East and have the 9th pick overal.

Rotten season and rotten draft pick.

 

[Britishbulldog]

If the season ended today the Leafs would finish 11th in the East and have the 9th pick overal.

Rotten season and rotten draft pick.

....and THAT is my biggest frustration Fanatic.  After being a Leaf fan for around 38 years I have been hoping for some semblance of hope for the team.  Not to sound mellow dramatic but I sincerely have no desire to have the Leafs ranked as one of the worst teams in the league.  When they don't make the playoffs what I am hoping is that they get some top draft picks to get better and dominate.

So yeah, right now I am getting surprisingly frustrated that the Leafs are winning when it doesn't matter, not because I want to see them lose, but because I want to see them dominate for years with some top players.  I don't know if Burke can do it.

 

[Fanatic]

If the Leafs start to do much better with Carlyle then that is a good sign for next year. Seeing them win now is only useful if it lays a foundation for next year. But it would also highlight that Burke should have pulled the trigger on Wilson sooner than he did.

 

[Kaberle15]

and with 10G to go, the Leafs still have an outside chance of crash the party or get a top 5 pick...

magic numbers are: 6 for a playoff spot (crazy, eh?) and 3 for a top 5 pick... (4 for a top 3)

What a rollercoster this has been. I wounder if they will beat Boston in Boston next and go 10-0-0 in the last 10 games...

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

What's the difference if you draft them yourself or if you trade for them?

I think goaltending matters more anyway if you're building your team around a specific player.

Because is costs you more to trade for a top player than to draft him yourself.  See Kessel, Phill.