Panthers vs. Maple Leafs - Oct. 19th, 7:00pm - TSN4, Fan 590

[herman]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2023/10/18/sheldon-keefe-on-moving-matthew-knies-onto-a-line-with-tavares-and-nylander/

Is it tough for Max Domi to get going if he is only playing for about 12 minutes? Does he need a little more?
Keefe: That is part of it. It is similar to Knies. Knies? minutes are too low as well.

It is a challenge. A player has to find their game individually. I have to help them along with that. At the same time, you have a lot of guys you are trying to introduce, get going, and get comfortable.

All four of our left-wingers are new. You are trying to find the right mix for everybody, but everybody is responsible for maximizing the minutes they do get. It will settle into place.

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2023/10/20/sheldon-keefe-post-game-panthers-2-vs-leafs-1-didnt-do-enough-to-generate-offense-if-you-dont-score-you-dont-win/

On what?s needed for the newcomers to become more comfortable with the team?s systems:
Keefe: Time.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/new-faces-same-issues-maple-leafs-lack-of-depth-scoring-exposed-in-loss-to-panthers/

What's the remedy?

"Just confidence," Keefe said. "He's really trying to work hard and do well defensively. He's trying to manage the puck. He's got a lot going on in his head.

"But I think over time he'll just settle in. You'll see more of his instincts come to the forefront. He's played the league a long time, and we expect that he'll settle in and get more comfortable."

The new guys are veterans, which might actually put them in a minor disadvantage in this scenario getting integrated into the Keefe-Leafs. Domi is well travelled around the league, but the Leafs system is a bit complex. I'm not saying that's a better or worse thing, just what it looks like to me. It has a lot of regular season success, but seems to get shutdown easily in playoff hockey unless you've got elite puckhandling and scoring and skating (Matthews, Nylander, that's it). Maybe this season's simplifications and embracing the chaos (more puck pursuit, less regrouping) will help.

Domi would work pretty well in the Florida system of straight hustle and attack wide across all three lanes, but the Leafs (especially the top 6) try to do a lot of position-less flow and multi-link sequences to maintain the puck (Marner-puck). He and Bertuzzi are thinking more than doing so it just takes time and reps to retrain the muscle/instinct. But at the NHL level, there's no time out there to react and make the right play, you kind of have to already know what to do when you see a certain pattern in front of you.

It's been a bit easier for Knies as he was drafted by the team for what he already does naturally, had the last season reps, and doesn't know too many different possible structures. He's also smarter as the baseline, so that helps with the adaptability. Expectations are not quite as high for him either.

 

[rdowdall]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2023/10/18/sheldon-keefe-on-moving-matthew-knies-onto-a-line-with-tavares-and-nylander/

Is it tough for Max Domi to get going if he is only playing for about 12 minutes? Does he need a little more?
Keefe: That is part of it. It is similar to Knies. Knies? minutes are too low as well.

It is a challenge. A player has to find their game individually. I have to help them along with that. At the same time, you have a lot of guys you are trying to introduce, get going, and get comfortable.

All four of our left-wingers are new. You are trying to find the right mix for everybody, but everybody is responsible for maximizing the minutes they do get. It will settle into place.

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2023/10/20/sheldon-keefe-post-game-panthers-2-vs-leafs-1-didnt-do-enough-to-generate-offense-if-you-dont-score-you-dont-win/

On what?s needed for the newcomers to become more comfortable with the team?s systems:
Keefe: Time.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/new-faces-same-issues-maple-leafs-lack-of-depth-scoring-exposed-in-loss-to-panthers/

What's the remedy?

"Just confidence," Keefe said. "He's really trying to work hard and do well defensively. He's trying to manage the puck. He's got a lot going on in his head.

"But I think over time he'll just settle in. You'll see more of his instincts come to the forefront. He's played the league a long time, and we expect that he'll settle in and get more comfortable."

The new guys are veterans, which might actually put them in a minor disadvantage in this scenario getting integrated into the Keefe-Leafs. Domi is well travelled around the league, but the Leafs system is a bit complex. I'm not saying that's a better or worse thing, just what it looks like to me. It has a lot of regular season success, but seems to get shutdown easily in playoff hockey unless you've got elite puckhandling and scoring and skating (Matthews, Nylander, that's it). Maybe this season's simplifications and embracing the chaos (more puck pursuit, less regrouping) will help.

Domi would work pretty well in the Florida system of straight hustle and attack wide across all three lanes, but the Leafs (especially the top 6) try to do a lot of position-less flow and multi-link sequences to maintain the puck (Marner-puck). He and Bertuzzi are thinking more than doing so it just takes time and reps to retrain the muscle/instinct. But at the NHL level, there's no time out there to react and make the right play, you kind of have to already know what to do when you see a certain pattern in front of you.

It's been a bit easier for Knies as he was drafted by the team for what he already does naturally, had the last season reps, and doesn't know too many different possible structures. He's also smarter as the baseline, so that helps with the adaptability. Expectations are not quite as high for him either.

Just disappointing that this seems to happen every year, then they get insanely hot for a couple of months, then slowly come back down to earth with a crashing thud in the playoffs.  I don't have a solution for it, but that just seems to be what happens.

 

[herman]

Just disappointing that this seems to happen every year, then they get insanely hot for a couple of months, then slowly come back down to earth with a crashing thud in the playoffs.  I don't have a solution for it, but that just seems to be what happens.

I think Treliving (based on what he has said about it) has a good understanding of what NHL playoff hockey requires. No room for thoughts or fancy unless a mistake is made by the other team. The Leafs system is amazing when it is clicking, but it needs all 5 players on the ice to be in sync (at minimum the three of them around the puck) and passing crisply. Half our games are played on SBA ice, so hahahaha. I think it would pay dividends for playoff success to play more directly instead of letting the other side set up their box out every time -- something like Keefe usage and non-buttholeness with a variation on the Babcock system. You really need to use the whole regular season to establish the routine and mental patterns.

 

[herman]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2023/10/20/game-in-10-maple-leafs-panthers-game-4/
Jake McCabe had his best game after swapping into Liljegren instead of Klingberg.

 

[Guilt Trip]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2023/10/20/game-in-10-maple-leafs-panthers-game-4/
Jake McCabe had his best game after swapping into Liljegren instead of Klingberg.

Definitely

 

[rdowdall]

Just disappointing that this seems to happen every year, then they get insanely hot for a couple of months, then slowly come back down to earth with a crashing thud in the playoffs.  I don't have a solution for it, but that just seems to be what happens.

I think Treliving (based on what he has said about it) has a good understanding of what NHL playoff hockey requires. No room for thoughts or fancy unless a mistake is made by the other team. The Leafs system is amazing when it is clicking, but it needs all 5 players on the ice to be in sync (at minimum the three of them around the puck) and passing crisply. Half our games are played on SBA ice, so hahahaha. I think it would pay dividends for playoff success to play more directly instead of letting the other side set up their box out every time -- something like Keefe usage and non-buttholeness with a variation on the Babcock system. You really need to use the whole regular season to establish the routine and mental patterns.

I agree the you need to use the whole season to establish the patterns that you want to use.  I think the criticism of the Leafs that they are too cute at times is warranted, and that they don't know how to play the style of game where you need to drive the net and let chaos ensue.

In a way it reminds of the Pat Quinn years, where he wasn't really an X and O guy and more of a motivational guy.  Quinn focused most of his practices around passing and timing, so that the team would be in sync come game time.  His idea was that we'll just come out and play a game where our team is in sync and the other team won't be able to execute a game plan to stop us.  However the weakness there is if the other team just doesn't let you do anything, then you never can get into sync.  This is why all the missed calls bother so much of us.  The missed penalties do two things to the Leafs in my eyes.  One, they don't allow the Leafs to skate freely and get synced up and get going, and two they rob the Leafs of a power play that could be used for the Leafs to get in sync and get going. 

I do think that Treliving has an idea of what needs to be done to be successful in the playoffs.  I just wonder how much of that can be instituted before the playoffs arrive.  I guess the good news is that if one of Matthews, Marner, Nylander or maybe Tavares just goes off in the playoffs, that could take this team pretty far.   

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Just disappointing that this seems to happen every year, then they get insanely hot for a couple of months, then slowly come back down to earth with a crashing thud in the playoffs.  I don't have a solution for it, but that just seems to be what happens.

I think Treliving (based on what he has said about it) has a good understanding of what NHL playoff hockey requires. No room for thoughts or fancy unless a mistake is made by the other team. The Leafs system is amazing when it is clicking, but it needs all 5 players on the ice to be in sync (at minimum the three of them around the puck) and passing crisply. Half our games are played on SBA ice, so hahahaha. I think it would pay dividends for playoff success to play more directly instead of letting the other side set up their box out every time -- something like Keefe usage and non-buttholeness with a variation on the Babcock system. You really need to use the whole regular season to establish the routine and mental patterns.

The ongoing issue I see with the Leafs system is that they often throw all their eggs in the offence basket which leads to high quality scoring chances for the other team. It has definitely been highlighted for good chunks of the first 4 games, but it's not a new problem.

As for their zone entries, they slow it down, way too often. And when they don't have the ability to slow it down, they dump and chase. It's two completely different strategies that lead to the other team having a good chance of either boxing them out, or recovering the puck. They need to start generating chances off the rush to keep the D honest. As of now, D groups are standing the Leafs up at the blueline forcing the dump and chase, or in the case that Toronto gains the zone, they are given time to set up a Box + 1 or dice pattern, mucking up the middle of the ice, making it difficult for Toronto to get anything of value to the net.

I personally think that Toronto's firepower scores despite their offensive strategies, as opposed to their offensive strategy leading them to more scores.

 

[L K]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2023/10/20/game-in-10-maple-leafs-panthers-game-4/
Jake McCabe had his best game after swapping into Liljegren instead of Klingberg.

Definitely

Definitely liked their game more.  I though McCabe started the game rough but was one of our stronger guys as the game went on.  I do like Gio's more conservative play style with Klingberg. I think we are still glaringly missing toughness on the blueline.  I think it just can't be another 7th defenseman

 

[herman]

https://x.com/frankcorrado22/status/1715448300457914632

 

[dappleganger]

https://twitter.com/frankcorrado22/status/1715448300457914632

I heard about Reaves arm waving/directing guys in the defensive zone on the radio. Seeing it now is more fun. He was right. Get over there Kampf!

 

[herman]

I personally think that Toronto's firepower scores despite their offensive strategies, as opposed to their offensive strategy leading them to more scores.

That's not entirely fair in my opinion, but it does sound very pithy and fun!

I think the system requires too much skill to operate for the way their cap sheet is laid out. It doesn't take much skill on the opposing side to disrupt.

 

[rdowdall]

I personally think that Toronto's firepower scores despite their offensive strategies, as opposed to their offensive strategy leading them to more scores.

That's not entirely fair in my opinion, but it does sound very pithy and fun!

I think the system requires too much skill to operate for the way their cap sheet is laid out. It doesn't take much skill on the opposing side to disrupt.

I think you are right.  I think that OldTimeHockey's post does contain much pith.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I'm full of pith and vinegar

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I think the system requires too much skill to operate for the way their cap sheet is laid out. It doesn't take much skill on the opposing side to disrupt.

Perhaps. Personally I think it's too much Harlem globetrotters. When it works, it looks fantastic. When it doesn't it results in the puck going the other way on a high quality chance. That is not sound hockey. That is 1980's, Edmonton Oilers hockey. The difference is, winning 7-6 isn't sustainable.

 

[rdowdall]

I think the system requires too much skill to operate for the way their cap sheet is laid out. It doesn't take much skill on the opposing side to disrupt.

Perhaps. Personally I think it's too much Harlem globetrotters. When it works, it looks fantastic. When it doesn't it results in the puck going the other way on a high quality chance. That is not sound hockey. That is 1980's, Edmonton Oilers hockey. The difference is, winning 7-6 isn't sustainable.

As fans, I think most of us know the nights they just don't have it.  It's the nights when they can't complete a pass, or just look out of sorts.  They rarely win those types of games.  It's like the team has a hard time winning ugly.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I think the system requires too much skill to operate for the way their cap sheet is laid out. It doesn't take much skill on the opposing side to disrupt.

Perhaps. Personally I think it's too much Harlem globetrotters. When it works, it looks fantastic. When it doesn't it results in the puck going the other way on a high quality chance. That is not sound hockey. That is 1980's, Edmonton Oilers hockey. The difference is, winning 7-6 isn't sustainable.

As fans, I think most of us know the nights they just don't have it.  It's the nights when they can't complete a pass, or just look out of sorts.  They rarely win those types of games.  It's like the team has a hard time winning ugly.

You are correct. And that's where a basic hockey system helps. You need some sort of structure that defends against those nights. It can't continue to be "well, we just didn't have it tonight" or "we need to be better" from the coach and players. No kidding. But what are you doing other than rinsing and repeating?

 

[dappleganger]

Domi shouldn't be near that top 6. Winger on the 3rd line (or at C, where he really excelled last year) makes the most sense to me for him. I think Robertson, Domi, Jankrok and Gregor, Kampf, Steeves could be a very nicely balanced bottom of the lineup

Also...isn't Klingberg, like, fast?

I tried looking into this and... I don't know. He doesn't appear as lead-footed as Giordano out there, I thought he's looked fine.

Why can't the NHL get with the times? I'm able to easily tell you/find Vlad Jr's sprint speed first to second but NHL skating speeds? Nada.

Ok, we have an answer. Klingberg is below average in terms of speed: